star49Who are conducting those missile deals since early 90s.
Flight International
February 21, 1996
LENGTH: 50 words
HEADLINE: DARTER TALKS
BODY:
South Africa and Pakistan are negotiating a $ 160 million missile deal believed to cover the sale of the Kentron U-Darter imaging-infra-red short-range air-to-air missile.Kentron parent company Denel has confirmed that it is talking to Pakistan, but declines to identify what the deal includes
star49Who do you think that unspecified customer is in Asia.
Flight International
June 28, 1995
HEADLINE: Kentron shows long-range missile
BODY:
SOUTH AFRICAN MISSILE MANUFACTURER Kentron unveiled a mock-up of its long-range anti-air missile (LRAAM) at the Paris air show in June.The weapon is now in development for an unspecified Asian customer.
the Kentron SAHV surface-to-air weapon, coupled with a Somchem ramjet and an imaging infra-red (IIR) seeker. To avoid seeker- head heating during the missile’s Mach 2.3 flight to the target, it is fitted with a cap which is discarded only in the final stages of the engagement. The missile offers a considerably larger engagement envelope than does the rocket-powered SAHV-IR. The company is also looking to develop a family of air-to-air weapons round the 180mm- diameter SAHV airframe with IIR and active-radar seeker. The latter programme, dubbed Super Darter, is to meet a South African Air Force requirement for a rocket/ramjet active radar beyond-visual-range missile for the first decade of the next century
star49Hi,
Mavaustin: exactly my point ..there are brochere figures and real time operational figures you take most recent Greece Version of Erieye and what we are evaluating these days..diffrence of versions and performance depends on where it is deployed Geography and whole lot..My objection still stands..what do you mean by tailored after the customer specs out the plane according to their need..I think what we are evaluating right now does need some tailoring.By the way Did PAF ever evaluted E-2s in Middle 80s?
Dassualt: I don`t know what i have done to you but you keep coming up to attack me personaly every time I post..if i was wrong about possible purchase of F-16s and i did said figure of 24 with delivery setup of 8 and 16 …you go ahead and see ACIG where i Claimed that ..and go ahead read recent reports they say 25 i was very close ……don`t just go around posting give me perfect and to the point replies so we can convince each other ..may be you still belive like lots of my Country men that M.M Alam Did shootdown 5 aircraft in one sortie even my popular Uncle Belives That Too..
And go ahead give me one proof of R-Darter or T-Darter in Pakistan ..Do have any Idea Grifo M can support T-Darter or R-Darter was .have you ever seen T-Darter operationaly deployed on SAAF Cheetah C/D….thats about it..do you know..Convince me that PAF has BVR AAM by decent post in discriptive Manner..not just Bash Bash!!!Cheers
Syed Shais Ali
By your logic there is no H-2 and H-4 as there technology is also based on Darter series specially seeker.
star49Now this from Aprile 2004. They are developing new high powr RD series engine for new MIG fighter based on MIG-29. So it is reasonable to assume some thing comparable to F-18E, EF and Rafale.
Klimov plant developing engine for new MIG fighter
MOSCOW. April 26 (Interfax-AVN) – The light multifunctional export-oriented fighter being designed by Russia’s MIG aircraft corporation will be powered by two new engines designed by the St. Petersburg-based Klimov plant, Alexander Novikov, director general of the Moscow-based Chernyshev machine-building plant, said on Monday.
“They are derivatives of the RD-33 engine’s latest modifications. The engine’s design will undergo substantial changes which will render new consumer qualities to the product,” Novikov told Interfax-Military News Agency.
The engine will have a new turbine and combustion chamber meeting requirements of the next generation. The fan and compressor will remain baseline, but will be changed, he stressed.
Asked about the new engine’s maximal afterburner thrust, the director general noted that it will amount to about 10.5 tonnes.
“Participants in the new fighter development program and the main developer (the MIG corporation – Interfax-AVN) signed documents on work arrangement and principles of its funding using the project participants’ own funds late last year,” Novikov said.
Under the program, the Chernyshev enterprise will take part in the fighter engine funding
star49Hi,
look all the data about H2 & H4 it matchs Raptor 1/2 it can`t be any other weapons. you read all reports ..it does not even warrant any Source. 60Km & 120Km deployed on Mirages..what else do you need..Star49, so if i was incorrect about PIA and Erieye why doesn`t PAF or PIA has ordered it yet..? Can answer Me
Cheers
MiG_Master aka Syed Shais Ali
I am not disputing H-2 and H-4 connection as there is South African report in Flight Internation. In previous FC-1 prototype 3 thread you can easily find it. What PAF is saying that the seeker tech for H-2 and H-4 comes from BVR project so what does it tells you about BVR?
Regarding ERIEYE Sweden hasnt given the final approval yet. May be late this year or next year. So PAF ordering them is premature.
star49Shais
any source toconfirm this?
Exactly the same thing i want to ask from him. This the same stories of SAAB-2000 for PIA, EIREYE failures (cannot see in 360 degree and donot have stated range).
star49lets stay on the topic and not go astray, this is not a political or history related thread just discussing recent developments. By the way, if any of you have read the latest edition of Air Power Review, it mentions that H-2 and H-4 are derivetive of Darter missile with booster rocket for longer range.
I know we have discussed it bfore and according to PakDef its a ASM with stand0off range but too many sources are refering it to a BVR AAM.
PAF has been talking about Rose-III upgrade for its Mirages, I believe the current negotiation is in regards to upgrades of Libyan mirages to Rose III standard since they have the least amount of air time on them along with avionics suit for the JF-17s.
In recent deliangs with France, Pakistan has tried to get the transfer of technology to some extent, point in case Agostas, Mine hunters and such or at least licence building locally like they did with Italians for Grifos. This could be a multi-million dollar deal.
Other sources of the last two years have mentioned PN going for additional Agosta’s, around 3 or 4 more. That is a possibility as well.
PAF is himself saying seeker of BVR used for PGMs so it is not unlikely that they donot have the BVR. It is also possible that there are two seekers one IIR and other EM. They are all putting BVR, H-2 and H-4 for Mirages in one sentence.
The H-4 bombs have been made through indigenous efforts by modifying the technological design of South African T-Darter BVR missiles. Till the induction of JF-17 Thunder in 2006, with a provision for BVRs, the H-2 and H-4 bombs could be carried by Mirage fighter jets. The H-4 infrared device is said to be comparable to that of the AA11, AA12 and Python 4 in the Indian arsenal
star49So, does that mean Malaysia has taken delivery of the RVV-AE?
Now Malaysia will get Flankers in 2006-07 period and operationalize in 2008. So by that time they want MICA what it tells about future R-77 versions? And regarding Arms race. I think Singapore already has AIM-120.
Separately, the Malaysian version of the Su-30MKI, known as the Su-30MKM, will see changes to the N011M radar and fire-control system to accommodate the MBDA Mica air-to-air missile specified by the Royal Malaysian Air Force
star49During the hearing on to sell Pakistan F-16, a document was presented to House Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, in which the year, month, the day, and the hour of departure & arrival including the PAF C-130 aircraft serial number and the serial number of AIM-9B included were the names of the flight crew and the flight plan was presented on the table in which Pakistan had illegally transfared to PRC in 1967, which was later reversed engineerd into the Chinese PL-5 AAM.
Gents, this was 1967, the Americans knew what the bloody hell was going between PRC & Pakistan. Do you think they they can’t figure it out now!
You also say that Pakistan sold the technology of B-707, Trident, R-550, AM-39, TOW, M-109, M-198, etc., to PRC also. But their is no evidence gents………….no evidence……..only conjuctures 😉
I dont believe in these C-130 landing in different parts of the World theories. Why will Pak ever use such obvious thing for some illegal thing. There are so many different ways of doing the same thing why do with such an obvious thing.
star49Evidence? We don’t need no evidence 😀 If Congress even thinks it was possible, they might take action, which would limit Pakistan to arms that are not necessarily superior to what they might get from China. If the PAF gets AIM-7s, for example, no big loss if one ends up mislabeled and sent from Islamabad to Beijing instead of Karachi…
Regarding the J-10 and Lavi/F-16, well, who knows. If anything untoward did happen, which in this case I personally believe it did, it would amount to a transfer of F-16 tech from Israel, not Pakistan, to China, via the Lavi program. The Lavi was developed from the F-16, after all.
I dont think it is the Congress which limits the technology transfer. It is more in the Pentagon and State department. If it was in the hands of US Congress that Israel-China Phalcon deal would have gone through. The same people who cancelled Phalcon deal is proposing F-16 to PAF. The amount of technology or advancement for PAF F-16 is limited by financial reasons.
star49Apart from F-16A having more range and payload than FC-1 below is the main reason for pursuing F-16 issue to logical conclusion.
F-16 Phobia grips Indian masses!
Fear & psychosis seems to have taken hold of the Indian
masses with an Iron fist & it has everything to do with
the proposed sale of F-16 by the bush administration to
pakistan for its help in it’s so called war on terror.
So is the extent of fear that indian people regard the
F-16 sale more dangerous than the nuclear weapons.The name “F-16” is so popular that it is a common house-
hold name in India. The Indian media also has it’s
contribution of scaring the Indian masses with the F-16
news hitting the headlines in every channel & news paper
across the country.Little that the people of India know is that Indian Air
Forces elites the MIG-29 & the Mirage-2000 can handle any
F-16’s pakistan can throw at us. And with the recent
acquisition of SU-30MKI by the IAF rated as the best
aircraft in the world, India has taken the first step
needed to break away from Pakistan centric defence
procurements.Su-30 MKI which combines the dexterity of Russian
airframe with it’s one of a kind engine & radar (also
supplied by russia) ,Electronic warfare suite from
israel, cockpit panels from france & several key
components from india makes it the best fighter plane
in the world.When asked about it to a Airforce official he said
” There is only two other aircrafts in the world
which comes close to the SU-30’s performance. One is the
EF-2000 & the other is the French rafael. The EF-2000’s
range is not what you would call as decent for it’s class of
fighters & the french rafael is too costly for it’s worth as
a battle field weapon.”On top of it all the IAF is set to upgrade it’s MIG-29 fleet
with latest avionics & plans to mass produce Mirage-2000 in
India.The F-16 phobia is a result of ignorance on the part of the
indian masses & the media which should be addressed as soon
as possible, else it could have serious consequences on the
morale of the entire nation.
star49again flawed
especially since you failed to differentiate which Su-30, you simply stated, Su-30MK, which is not in operation with any air force, there is only the MKK, MKI, and soon to be, MKM.Then you were comparing the MiG-29, not between the MiG-29M and MiG-29K. Further more, the MiG-29K is a carrier aircraft, the MiG-29M is not, carrier aircraft have further structural differences that escalate costs, if you continue to claim similarities, post up some facts and stats.
futhermore integration of more weapons, including actual tests with live weapons does not mean the radar is not necessarily more advance, it means it’s proven! something different than assuming the capabilities of a radar that has not had the excessive testing or funding to test these weapons. I’m sure you heard of the term vaporware.
There is little difference between Su-30MK and -MKK version interms of technology so price should be simlar. On the other hand -MKI and -MKM version are expensive due to TVC, Canards, Phased array radar, digital FBW and foreign components.
So it is more reasonable to assume Su-30MKK price from Su-30MK.
This is the only difference between K and M version. otherwise they are almost the same.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-29k.htm
MiG-29M/M2 shore-based aircraft differ from ship-based versions by landing gear, removed arresting hook and installed drogue parachute.
star49A faulty comparison and analogy. The MiG-29M series initially had more modes supported than the basic Su-27, however time and money favored Flanker development. the Su-30MKK series has actually completed tests of various A2G ordinances, thanks to a large customer base and funding, something of which the MiG-29M cannot say.
furthermore, the Su-30MKI has digital fly by wire, read
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRHeft04/FRH0411/FR0411d.htmMiG-29 costs, MiG-29M, MiG-29SMT, and MiG-29K prices are different and you have to recognize it’s differences. Carrier-based aircraft tend to be more expensive than a dedicated land based aircraft, compare the prices of the MiG-29K deal and Yemens MiG-29SMT deal. India is a large user of the MiG-29.. just the MiG-29, not the M, K, or SMT which are considerably different
My comparision is right. Integration of large number of weopons does not mean that Radar is more advanced or capable.
Srbin is comparing Su-30MK with MIG-29M. ZHUK-ME is Slot array radar while Su-30MKK uses old casegrain antenna has no SAR or MTI modes nor it supports multi-targeting beyond 2 aircrafts. Su-30MK is also analog FBW. There is 90% commonality between MIG-29M and MIG-29K so price should be similar. Su-30MKI and Su-35 are priced higher and different aircraft.
star49There was 26Th November Russian report (I didnot save it) that 105 Kits were delivered.(It is another matter how many they built as russians could not figure it out ). Also for SK upgrade some russia offering Glonass guided PGMs which were earlier not present. Su-30MK3 has completed all the tests and from recent Ivanov visit describing talks fruitful. I can assume new order of Flankers for 2005 or 06
star49I am not sure about the Mig-29M1/M2, it costs about 30mn, while the much more bigger and more capable Su-30MK costs what, 35mn?
MIG-29M is more sophisticated aircraft than Su-30MK(Digital FBW versus Analog, Radar with full ground modes, composites etc). A proper comparision of MIG-29M technology is with the price of new Su-27SKM upgrade.
Also MIG-29 is in limited production unlike Flanker. MIG-29K costs upto $43M for In despite India is already a big operator MIG-29 for long period of time. So imagine MIG-29M costs for country which already does not have MIG-29.
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