When people say that Pakistan has some imputs in the project, may i know what those imputs are exactly apart from the funding and probably a few engineers going to China and being trained? What is Pakistan developing exactly?

So far the russians have officially denied an engine sale to pakistan, the engine will thus be either Chinese or French.

So what engine currently inside FC-1 and what engine is going into Prototype 5. ?Officially means in writting and there is no such thing exists.

and you claim you are smart ? :rolleyes:

you did’nt read the part about RCS did you ? or is it that you dont know what RCS means ?

do you know what advantages composites offer in structures sense ? they have high specific strength, high specific stiffness. also, composite construction leads to smoother surfaces, since no rivets, or sharp transitions are needed. This reduces drag.

do you know what difference using composites did the AV-8B Harrier ? compare that aircraft to the basic Harrier and you’ll know why composites matter. it has graphite/epoxy (fiber/matrix) wing-box skins, forward fuselage, hori. stabilizer,elevators, rudder, outrigger fairing,overwing fairing, totalling about 26% of the aircraft’s total structural weight.

do you realise what improvements are offered to the T/W ratio due to weight reduction ? the Tejas TD-2 itself had reduced about 400 kg (correct me if I’m wrong) from the TD-1 and all thanks to more use of composites. now calculate the T/W ratio of these two aircraft and already the TD-2 stands superior. 🙂

and who says that F-16s/Mirages, etc. did’nt use composites ? the horizontal and vertical stabilizers, flaps, and other control surfaces on the F-15 and F-16 are composites, with typical weight savings of 20%.

and now lets talk bout the X-29 forward swept fighter. the conventional Aluminium structures could not withstand the aerodynamic forces acting on such a wing, so that graphite/epoxy composite wings had to be used.

IN fact, the implementation of the forward swept wing had to wait till the development of advanced composites.

and just because its on the Tejas, which happens to be Indian, you’ll say that it does’nt matter whether composites are used or not. 😉

and this is supposed to be plain stupid Indian logic huh ? :diablo:

From where you get 20% weigth reduction due to composites in F-16 and F-18?. AV-8B is not high performance machine fifteen series. Only F-18E/F uses 35% composites by weight but it is not better than F-16E/F.(Infact F-16 E/F can lift much more than F-18E/F and has better TWR.

And 400KG weight reduction in LCA from what begining weight? There is no independent proof that LCA is of 5500KG neither is there of 45% composite use. This is just Indian specification with no practical meaning in real life. I will reserve my judgment on JF-17 percentage of composite use. you will know it better in final standard before production.

the reason that the construction of the FC-1 was kept simple and basic was to bring the aircraft into service early. neither China nor Pakistan (whose contribution to the FC-1 is negligible other than finance) have any great expertise with composites and developing an industrial base for that would have taken time. I’ll give u that. But accept the fact that the FC-1 is a mid/older generation aircraft as far as its construction goes, and so it will take lesser time to test than an aircraft like the Tejas that extensively uses composites.

But composites have a great advantage that you’re totally overlooking. the RCS of a Tejas will be smaller than a comparable all-metal aircraft of the same size. and being already a small aircraft, use of 40% composites would reduce its RCS considerably.

and just by putting comparable avionics on the FC-1, it does’nt become as technologically advanced as the Tejas.

and Tiger bete, go and compare the specifications of the Gripen and the Tejas, they are almost in the same class.

F-16, M2K and Flankers are all metal aircraft. It does not make LCA superior to them. Its Indian logic that because LCA uses twice the composites of Gripen so it is better :rolleyes:

this from UKranian newspaper showing the earlier failure of Igla delivery but PAK got hold of it despite all Indian attempts.

For the simple reason that Russia does not intend to share this strategic market (in the estimation of Russian experts, the overall volume of supplies of Russian arms and military hardware to China and Pakistan [as published] amounts to 90 per cent of all annual sales). Within the framework of this dubious direction, it was proposed to Ukraine to buy the well-known Igla anti-aircraft missile launch systems (they are not produced in Ukraine) for them to turn up in Pakistan. The idea itself seemed a good one, but Russian high-ranking officials woke up in time, since Delhi’s reaction to such deliveries could have produced more problems than financial advantage. As for Ukrainian achievements on the Pakistani market, Kiev is conducting about more than 15 projects in that country in the defence industry.

As for Ukrainian achievements on the Pakistani market, Kiev is conducting about 15 projects in that country in the defence industry

he said that the great H. Khan was pulling stuff out of his posterior not on the Rafale, but on the other long list.

PAF has embarked on advance training courses on all active and inactive pilots of F-16s with USAF.

*In the second batch, an AC & GC were given detailed briefing on F-16 E/F Block 60.

*The US has given clearance for PAF to send 70+ pilots on 3-5 years deputation to UAE AF to help them fly their F-16. This group of pilots will be under the command of an AC of PAF.

*The JF-17 and Grifo-M upgraded Mirages will carry H-2 and H-4 BVRAAM. The H-2 missile has range of 32 miles and H-4 missile has a range of 65 miles. The H-4 has a lot of help from South Africa and PAF will also integrate H-2 into F-7PG.

*PAF will most likely buy both Erieye and E-2C AEW &C.

Whats wrong with the above list. PAF is evaluating Hawkeye as PAF chief mentioned in his October 2003 Janes interview. H-2 and H-4 are PGMs and regarding Pilot training issue thats i dont know so unless some body can prove otherwise from other source this assertion stands corrected.

http://www.pakobserver.net/200412/0…opstories06.asp

Aroosa Alam

Islamabad—Country’s prestigious defence organisation, Air Weapons Complex (AWC) has not only saved billions of dollars worth foreign exchange but also earned 75 million dollars through exports of its products. A day long privileged visit to PAC Kamra and AWC has revealed that the two prime defence organisations are not only contributing to the needs of three services but also making waves in the region for its high standard defence equipments. Pakistan’s indigenously produced weapon systems have reached major regional markets and number of customers are increasing everyday. But the success story of AWC and PAC Kamra cannot be completed without the mention of the valuable contribution by men and women of excellence working on these projects. It was a surprisingly pleasant sight to find delicate fingers of Pakistani women putting together the sophisticated parts of fuzes for f MK-80-81-82 bombs at AWC. Rightly to be proud, the two organisations are equal partners in country’s rapidly growing defence industry besides also contributing sub-systems to country’s missile programme.

Air Weapon Complex has successfully developed the guiding systems for Pakistan’s Shaeen, Hatf and Ghouri missile systems. The highly qualified and dedicated team of engineers and technicians has also developed state-of-the-art Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV) code name Bravo which has conducted several successful reconnaissance missions inside India. Bravo, a tactical UAV has the range of 80km with the endurance time of four hours. Besides carrying payload, it carries sophisticated camera that can transmit images and data to the base station while still airborne. Bravo with the price tag of 10 million US $ is available for open market and likely clients include some Arab and far eastern countries. Some of the agreements are in the final stages and some are being negotiated. With the help of private sector enterprises, the AWC is also developing two new strategic UAVs which will have range of more than 250km. Bravo is already into service of Pakistan Army and PAF. In fact the PAF is raising a full fledge squadron of UAVs which will include various types of locally produced Drownes and UAVs including some imported UAVs.

AWC has made tremendous progress in making aerial bombs of various categories. These products are not only catering to the needs of PAF but also earning valuable foreign exchange which has cut even the cost of R&D expenses of the organisation. The Complex under the able guidance of its commanders is working over time on some of very vital and sensitive projects to enhance the conventional defence capabilities of the country. “Pakistan has achieved nuclear parity with India and our efforts are now more dedicated towards the consolidation of country’s conventional strength”, said one of the Engineer working at the Fuze Integration part of the Complex. The facility is producing highly lethal Steel bombs, Pre-fragmented bombs, Delayed Action bombs and proximity action bombs. The Area Denial Bombs are of great significance and a major achievement for the AWC for producing them for both local and international markets. Packed with 250 bomblets that are timed differently, the Area Denial Bomb of AWC is a great strategic asset for any army or air force. This sophisticated bomb not only destroys enemy’s positions but also create a safe passage for our army to capture enemy’s positions. The remaining bomblets that are timed to explode later create further destruction. Delayed action bombs root out enemy from their dugged positions. Similarly proximity action bombs explode short of surface to give a wider impact. AWC is also producing Aerial Tape Recording (AVTR) systems which help the navigators to conduct useful de-briefing after every mission. This system is mounted on Mirages, F-7s, Cobra helicopters and even on Super Mushaks. The Complex is also producing and supplying to various clients multi- target tracker radar.

While AWC is playing its role to give Pakistan’s three services new defence technologies and equipments, PAC Kamra is helping the country to maintain its otherwise fragile air defence. Prestigious Jane Defence Magazine has recently rated PAC Kamra as world’s best overhauling facility for fighter aircraft. PAC makes an airworthy fighter out of junk. And this has been demonstrated by the PAC Kamra men many times. The story goes from the Australian Mirages to the rusted Libyian Mirages. Credit also goes to PAF, the airforce which is operating the oldest version of aircraft. PAC Kamra is one Pakistani defence organisation with whom the famous French aeronautical firm SAGEM is striving hard to get into joint venture or cooperation for the upgradation and overhauling of old Mirages. But bosses in the PAC Kamra do very candidly admit that their eyes are still fixed at American F-16s. “To be very honest, there is no fighter jet like F-16 even if it is off old vintage”, said one senior official claiming also that Pak-China’s wonder fighter JF-17 can form the frontline of air defence. Avionics and weapon systems for JF-17 have been selected and they are of Chinese origin. JF-17 will be first Pakistani fighter to have BVR missile system on board. But Pakistani security planners are not solely relying on Chinese avionics, option of integrating weteren systems on the second batch of the JF-17 are open and talks are on with various western manufacturers. Small batch of JF-17 will be produced by end Dec 2006 while the serial production is expected by year 2007. Price tag on JF-17 for PAF will logically be low to the tune of 15 US Million but for the customers it can be higher.

PT,

In February 2004, we see:

http://www.dawn.com/2004/02/19/nat1.htm

Exactly Gen. Pervez – Why would any self-respecting nuclear power do such a thing as allowing foreigners in their weapons labs for the sake of a few weapons…

And where was Indian self respect when its defence Minister fernandez was undressed two times and by his own words. 😀
. and Elbardie is not credible person. he has lied several time about Egyptian nuclear program. Western press reports such things because of Pak ties to another important coutries to the east.. Pak has hundreds of Nuke facilities and most of them are decoys Most important Prof are from GIK institute Topi where i studied. I don’t think you have clue of that. :D.

The Russians are trying to push the Mig-29 platform as an offset to not selling RD-33s to the JF-17 program. Most likely, what will wind up happening is that India will

a) buy more Mig-29s for the IAF along with giving the Mig-29 upg to the Russians or
b) buy more Mig-29s for the IN.

If (a) occurs, then the 126 plane tender might be split between Mig-29 and M2K (deja vu?).

Also, for (a) to occur, the IAF will have to decide what’s more important, giving up the plane that they really want (M2K) or possibly interfering with the JF-17 program. I emphasise “possibly” because the Russians could be bluffing as GD is referring to.

Even India signing for 126 MIG-29 will not make a difference. this thing is not only tied to money but it involves some thing else. I dont think you are that smart to figure this thing. 😀