star49:rolleyes: That’s to simulate the Sizzler. Think about that for a second. Is the significance of that sinking in yet?
why it should be of any significance when far better missile technology has already been exported.
And about 2014. Russians are decades ahead compared to rest of the world in antiship missile tech. And what i read they are going to spend $2.7B in new materails (primarily composites, reduce rcs etc, 10,000 employed). and add to that Supercomupters for research, more efficient supply chain from raw materials to components (hence quicker product and improvement) and new automated industrail machinery. The end product will be in whole different league. than what can be done under soviet system or in 90s era.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20080805_brahMos_aerospace.html
Aerial, sub-surface variants of the BrahMos cruise missile ready for tests news
05 August 2008BrahMos Aerospace said it has developed two additional – air and sub -surface – variants of its supersonic cruise missile, also called the BrahMos. According to a top scientist, the agency was also on course to develop a hypersonic version of the missile.
BrahMos Aerospace chief executive and managing director, A Sivathanu Pillai, said the company would take up the BrahMos II project under a major expansion programme that will see the production of hypersonic missiles.
Hypersonic missiles can cruise at speeds of Mach 5-7. The current version travels at a speed of 2.8 Mach.
Meanwhile, two new variants of the current model have already been developed and are in various stages of approval and test firing. “We are very close to the launch of the underwater version and the navy has to ready the requisite platform for the testing,” Pillai said. Pillai was speaking to the media in Tiruchirapalli in Tamil Nadu
For the air version, the development systems were ready and the integrated test would be undertaken after mock firing. However, the launch of the air version and commercial production would take some time as certain structural modifications were yet to be made in the Russian-built Sukhoi aircraft.
“We have already completed 15 flights successfully and are waiting for the availability of the modified design in Sukhoi which has to reduce other pay loads,” Pillai said.
In this regard he mentioned that a special high powered committee, comprising of experts from the Indian Air Force, the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd and BrahMos Aerospace had been constituted to carry out the required modifications.
The agency has already developed four versions of the missile in ship-to-ship, land-to-land, land-to-ship and ship-to-land versions
star49that is delivery in 2014. Atleast three decades behind sizzler which is still essentially extension of Soviet technologies.
By that time will be moved to hypersonics with more robust AI capabilitie.
star49Didn’t Russia sell some KH-31s to USA for training US defences?
Kh-31 has been exported to various countries. In 2001-02 evaluation of Su-30MKM this thing was considered as the best missile available for RMAF. There is chinese version equping JH-7s. All Russia has to do is is bringing a regiment of Su-27SM with later version of Kh-31 and all the ships in black sea will be at the bottom.
This news item points out there is continous research going on at same Soviet facilities. It is not that they are sitting idle.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080530/108892328.html
Adm. Vysotsky said the Russian Navy has $4 million worth of contracts with Kyrgyz enterprises for the production of torpedoes, equipment, and components, but not ammunition.He visited Thursday a naval research facility Russia rents on a lake in Kyrgyzstan.
The testing site near the city of Karakol, 380 km (240 miles) from the capital Bishkek, was set up during the Soviet era and is still used to test advanced torpedo propulsion and guidance systems for the Russian Navy.
It has reportedly provided both a test bed and production facilities for one of Russia’s most advanced naval weapon systems, the super-cavitating 220 mph Squall or Shkval rocket-propelled torpedo, with a range of six nautical miles, designed to destroy large surface ships such as aircraft carriers.
Russia currently pays $4.5 million annually to use these military installations
star49ROFL! Easy there Star, you sound like you’re starting to hyperventilate. Russia has a couple ships with crews of questionable experience aboard. And I’m sure they and their masters are aware that if they started shooting they’d shortly have a couple Mk48s under their keels. Ignore the “Hero of the Soviet Union” as he sounds like Baghdad Bob.
I have clearly given real life examples that Russians dont need the same amount of money and training to produce the result. and Naval technologies from missiles, to submarines to torpedoes is there traditional strength. And since they are playing with them only they can develop effective countermeasures against them.
star49US can certinaly leave Western Europe but it cannot leave Eastern Europe.
I think it is the other way around,the US can leave eastern europe and cannot leave western europe. Without Western Europe US has no influence in the world. Russia is proving to the world that it doesn’t need to have 26 alliances to strenghen her. The US always does, our partners this and our partners that. The US is a big coward when push comes shove and always need support for her existence.
A single nation with 148 million people and only a little over $trillion GDP squaring off with 27 nations with over $30 trillion combined GDP and almost 700 million people and basically holding them at bay. It is just like one heavyweight champion against another heavyweight champion plus other 26boxers in other weights in a square ring.
Western EU is financially independent and US needs more Western EU than the other way around. Just look at exposure EU banks to US market. But Eastern EU immigrants are more recent compared to Older rish/Italains/English/French so those ties does not influence US policies as thoes who escaped communism in recent 70 years. I know it looks stupid.
star49Nope Bazalt as in P-500 is a high altitude diver. P-700 has the 100ft low profile and salvo-leader guidance. I think Janes reports, incorrectly, that P-500 does the same thing but it doesnt. Even P-700, a design much better suited to the supersonic environment at that altitude, is knocked down to just over M1 on the low profile.
As to the issue of whether the Burke would be chopped to the NATO group in the Black Sea its an ops order. Thats about all it would take.
So u know 100% about P-500/P-700:rolleyes:. There was Naval exhibition where Russian cleary said one export customer will not know about the other export customer missile even if they are the same missiles. It was related to Brahmos poster where claim about Sizzler was made.
star49By that logic though Star the Royal Navy should have had no issue at all with that Argentine 209. The RN were, and are, arguably the worlds foremost ASW force – that little German diesel boat gave us issues out of all proportion with its size. You underestimate Turk SSK’s in the Black Sea if you want. IMO the Moskva would have a very interesting life if it sortied to engage in hostilities.
RN and Russian Navy. U wanna play that match. Just look at the submarines and missile testing and tactics experiance of Russian design bureaus and Naval experiance. China/India cannot make even the down graded export version of Sizzler/Brahmos by itself (Even with all the world money) and Russian sure knows how to tackle them. And that is merely 80s tech at best.
Maybe true but of little help in the Black Sea today
To develop training and tactics against latest acoustic signatures. This one is not even cleared for export.
You think the Russians can teach the Germans, Norwegians, Aussies, Canadians or Japanese anything about SSK ops do you?. The Turks and Greeks have, by rumour, been playing their own games under the eastern Med for decades. Like I said underestimate them if you want…I wouldn’t!.
No one is underestitmating them but dont come with that ludicorous comparision of comparing experiance, knowledge base, training, eqiipment, quckly develop counter measures by research bureaus, interaction with export customer base that is available to Russian navy.
Just to give u an example Soviet Union won 55 golds in neutral conditions at mere fractional of cost/players in 1988 to what Chinese spent to achieve 50 gold in 2008. same is true for 2008. Greek/Turkish combined cannot match Russians at mere fractional of cost as money spent in Russia produced vastly different result.
another example Turks are using its first grade army against Kurds (which are notch below the wahbist Russia facing in cacaus) but Russians are using equivalent to US National guards with 1960s equipment. Results are quite abvious Russian piplines/Industrail infrastures is safe but Turks are not and that comes from that vast experiance and traing across whole CA with high level of intellectual base.. So i dont think end result be any different in Naval matters. Black sea fleet has the information support available from other fleets.
star49LOL….funny man!.
What he’s just admitted, by talking up his surface forces, is that the REAL threat in those waters…the SSK’s…aren’t up to speed. Nothing on the Black Sea missile boats is up to cracking even a single Burke and especially not those P-500/1000’s aboard Moskva. He knows that as well as any other former professional!.
Moskva would be well advised to stay in port regardless in case the Turks get to post up some scope shots of her hull from one of their 209’s. We had a LOT more ASW arrayed in the Falklands than the Black Sea Fleet has in total and we never got near that Argentine 209!.
Russians will know more about U boats than Turks. think over it.
and they have certainly produced the largest number of SSK after coldwar. latest Amur class is in final trials with 3 more joining by next year. So surely they know how to hunt them down. And than there is issue of training. Russians are miles ahead of Turks or any other navy.
star49From memory, China side with Russia on the US/Poland/Czech ABM controversy. AFAIK, China is the only country openly supports Russia on that ABM controversy.
Chinese position is nothing practical. Just like Western EU. Russian position demands more active participation like change the borders that make system redundant or put so much economic squeeze that make it un affordable.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1309605.stm
Wednesday, 2 May, 2001, 21:47 GMT 22:47 UK
Germany warns US on missile defence
Germany has underlined European concerns about a new American defence plan, urging President George W Bush not to go ahead with a controversial missile system until he has examined the consequences for arms control.
Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said any change to the military balance between the major powers should be based on co-operation, not confrontation.
star492nd rate? Who would be first? Let me guess- Russia? ROFL!!! And Europe certainly has a lot of room to talk. It would serve them right if the US packed up all it’s forces in Western Europe and said “you’re on your own”.
Russia is first rate power by all respects as it owe nothing to any one in all respects nor it is controlled by outside interests. Infact rest of the world owe them alot. US can certinaly leave Western Europe but it cannot leave Eastern Europe. There is close connection between those immigrants who had influence and Eastern EU elite.
star49Not only Taiwan. But also Tibet.
China is happy with what Russians are doing. But will not openly support them for the time being.
This thing is not good for China standing in world. Showing weakness to West which will conveniently used against China for very long time to come as those issues are not going to go away. In internatioanl affairs only those countries can earn respect that can apply double standards.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5guAa5jCMIWCy-SMYWZY4-0451p5w
China cannot back Russia in Georgia crisis: analysts
star49Doesn’t need to be. Consider Peacekeeper and when it was made.
US in 80s was far more advanced and richer than Soviet Union. Soviet Union was building stuff in 1950s era factories. and most of it has perished in 90s.
Ukraine is even poorer than Belarus on per capita basis. So i doubt any qualified people and investment for ICBM is left. Putin isnt stupid. He is not only purchased vast industrial machinery from West but has collect over 6.5 million of Russians from former republics.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Russia_And_Ukraine_Joining_Forces_In_Space_Or_Going_Their_Separate_Ways_999.html
Russia And Ukraine Joining Forces In Space Or Going Their Separate WaysIt is interesting to note that more than 900 plants and enterprises, over 700 of them in Russia, contributed to the development of the Zenit rocket system, which is undoubtedly Yuzhnoye’s most distinctive achievement.
Its first-stage engine was developed under Glushko’s direction at the Energomash Research and Production Association in Khimki outside Moscow; its control system, at the Moscow Research and Production Center of Automatic Devices and Instrument Making under Nikolai Pilyugin, a member of the Soviet Academy of Sciences. The engine is still considered the world’s best in its class. The control system places spacecraft in preset orbits with pinpoint accuracy. (Glushko once joked that if a stick were fitted out with his engine and Pilyugin’s control system, it would reach the Moon). A ground-based launch system developed at the Moscow Design Bureau of Transport Engineering ensures that the Zenit can be prepared and launched fully automatically, in the unassisted mode. This feature, an unassisted launch, is the reason this environmentally clean vehicle was chosen for one of the largest international space projects at the turn of the century – Sea Launch.
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russian side, in addition to maintaining its traditional ties with the Ukrainian space industry, also sought to broaden them. Ukrainian firms remained full-fledged participants in the preparation and launching of Russian spacecraft, and bore full responsibility for the parts they installed. The Ukrainian side is interested in active cooperation no less than Russia. Zenit rockets manufactured by Yuzhmash have 72% of their components delivered from Russia. Moreover, Ukraine lacks its own space center, and practically all rockets and spaceware made in the country must be launched with Russian participation
Still, a measure of disunity between the two countries’ space industries could not be avoided. Sudden independence upset years of production cooperation between the plants, which found themselves on the opposite sides of the border. Experts believe that the curtailment and freezing of joint projects is costing the Ukrainian side tens of millions of dollars annually. There is now little if any demand for products made in Ukraine. There are also financial problems with government orders. In other words, the only past source of financing is gone.
It would be wrong, however, to say that the Ukrainian leadership has not tried to improve things. It drew up and implemented several national space programs. The optimal sharing of even meager funds has helped most of the industry survive. This came about thanks to the direct support given to the Ukrainian space industry by a former Ukrainian president, Leonid Kuchma, through personal arrangements with Vladimir Putin, including liberalization of customs rules for countertrade deliveries by space equipment manufacturers.The issue, however, is not what Ukraine wants to get from cooperation with the Western powers, but what it can give them. And it has nothing to give: Ukraine, unlike China or India, lacks a full-fledged space industry, and the emergence of one in the next few years is unrealistic because there are just no resources for it. Ukraine is in a position to pursue a more or less credible space effort only in cooperation with Russia. Some progress has already been reported
So despite past 4 years of Orange revolution. Ukranian people and industry is firmly attached to Russia
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6257376.html
Ukraine to strengthen cooperation with Russia on space science research
+ – 11:14, September 07, 2007
Ukraine will strengthen cooperation with Russia on space science research projects, Mikola Mitrahof, head of Ukraine’s National Space Agency information center, said Thursday.The two countries reached agreements on boosting space science cooperation on the sidelines of Ukraine’s and Russia’s economic cooperation committee meeting Wednesday and Thursday in the Crimean Republic, south of Ukraine, Mitrahof said
star49That speculation is at least backed up by factual evidence of ongoing programs demonstrating a continued ballistic missile industry presence in the Ukraine. All you have done is provide an opinion that Ukraine cannot exist without Russia without proving your point.
Factual evidence comes from Actual tests. How many ICBM tests have been done in last 10 years in UKraine? Ukraine is now behind India/Iran in this field.
Russians have clearly said Buran shuttle cannot be created again as infrastructure and people went way as that is well funded space program.
star49There is no credible reason to assume that, with the proper funding, the Ukraine couldn’t develop an ICBM. They’re already developing the Grom and/or Sapsan (they might be the same thing) tactical ballistic missiles. Combine that experience with the SLV production ability and the know-how from the SS-24 guidance unit and you have an ICBM without Russia.
http://www.missiles.ru/korshun_e.htm
http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/ukraine/missile/index_5523.html
http://military-informer.narod.ru/English-Sapsan.html
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3486976
There’s also been talk of cooperation with Israel, which could aid such an effort:
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Ukraine_Seeks_Missile_Alliance_With_Israel_999.html
This is just speculation. Untill you see practical launches u cannot assume they can do it. If there SLV capabity were so good French would have asked them to launch from French Guyana as there services are cheaper. No capability so no one want to invest except Russia.
star49It’s probably not up to current standards but the knowledge is clearly there. The SS-24 had a CEP of around 500 meters, which is certainly useable for an ICBM.
I think ur not fully grasping the social and economical upheavel in 90s. It effected UKraine much more than Russia. Russia had commercial space launch industry that help it people employed and get new people upto training on new equipment. Just the rent and maintainance of Baiknor (80,000 people) is more than what Ukraine can hopefull spent. There is no chance of restarting SS-24 just like AN-124 without Russian money and equipment and will still take couple of years.
Sign In
