When we use the latest Soviet era programs as yardstick we can assume that the PAK-FA will not be combat ready the day after tomorrow but will start with a set of technologies, basically a low observable airframe, supercruise and internal weapons bay. Engines may (and most likely will) still be preliminary, as are avionics and flight controls. After a couple of years they arrive at something that comes close to production status, then probably with the definitive engine.
Avionics and other stuff will be integrated later. I think the initial aircraft will be a bit like a Suchoi 27 in new dress. The majority of people posting here obviously forget how aircraft become a weapon system.

Any stated IOC before 2015 is embarrassing for the poster, any real operational service before 2020 is still somehow optimistic. The Suchoi 27 needed 9 years under Cold War conditions and being a comparatively simple design.

why use Soviet era as example?. when there was lack of resources, computer technology, Industrial machinery compared to West. Producing Su-27 at those times is nothing short of miracle.
Just compare East Germany to West Germany

http://www.americanmachinist.com/304/Issue/Article/False/68570/Issue
Besides the familiar companies, MASHEX also provided the opportunity to visit with Russian machine tool manufacturers such as the Ivanovo Heavy Machine Tool Building Works (http://www.invanovocenter.ru), the Ryazan Machine Tool Plant (http://www.rsz.ru) and the Savelovsky Machine Building Factory, whose equipment has not appeared at shows in the United States. These companies have been in operation for more than 50 years, and the 5-axis high speed machining centers, horizontal machining and boring machines, and CNC lathes they produce appear to be every bit on par with anything produced in the West
For the first time in MASHEX history, an American was invited to speak as part of this year’s conference: John Byrd III, president of The Association for Manufacturing Technology (AMT).

Byrd pointed out to the audience that “it took 30 years for the United States to fully implement CNC machining, but only 15 to 20 years for Japan and 5 to 10 years for China to reach the same point of development.” He went on to warn the audience that the job loss in US industry has largely been due to improved productivity, and that Russia will likely experience the same.

The impact of automation will be difficult to accept in a country that was the birthplace of the “worker’s paradise,” where every person was guaranteed a job, he said.

“Projects are coming up in Russia that are incurring interest in welding robots,” Jan Lindmark, president of Motoman Robotics Europe, said in addressing people who were examining his company’s products.
This year’s MASHEX served notice to the world that, clearly, Russia isnot lagging in machining technology. The Italians and Germans who made up the bulk of the customers in exhibitor booths appear quite willing to choose Russian machine tools, so it is up to the Western manufacturers to increase their presence at this show if they expect to fully compete in the world marketplace.

S-400 is not a new system. It used to be S-300PMU3. Everyone knows that T-90 is a T-72 derivate. Lada is several magnitude quieter than a Kilo, ha, it failed its trials, which is why only one is made and it has been lifted from being offered to Indonesia.

who knows anything aout S-400. It has been exported or evaluated. It is like saying that F-22 can use F-15C weopons. So it must be derivative. Same is with T-90. just compare price of T-72upgrade to T-90. It is different capability

Su-35 is still derivate of Su-27. You still have the same design as the Su-27. None of what you said makes the Su-35 a brand new plane, unless you want to say the same standard for the J-11B.

name me a single part of Su-35 that is same as Su-27? u cannot even manufacture Su-35 in Su-27 factory. J-11B is same Su-27SK

Bull. They only talking of getting to 0.9, and still currently at 0.18. Low cost producer means having quality at low cost. The fundamentals of commercial electronics industry benefits that of of the defense electronics industry. You build from the ground up, not top down.

where is that coming from. They are going directly into 0.45n. EU is at 0.32nm in 2006.

Russia’s Sistema to invest $860 mln in construction of Sitronics plant

MOSCOW. April 9 (Interfax) – Russia’s AFK Sistema (RTS: AFKS) is planning to invest about $860 million in the construction of a plant in Zelenograd for its high-tech arm Sitronics to produce microchips with feature size ranging from 0.045-0.065 microns.

The shareholder capital of the new plant will be distributed as follows: the government will own 46%, Sistema – 43% and Sitronics – 11%, Sitronics general director Sergei Aslanian said at a press conference in Moscow on Wednesday

Bull. Kits in 2004 were far from complete. In fact, by 2004, China made up to 80% of the components.

In 2004 80% of components?

WRONG. India got 10 Su-30MKI in 2002, and no, they didn’t have 32 MK by 2004, because around 18 of said Su-30s are Su-30Ks they got before 1999. China got 100 Su-30MKK but the production started in 2000. UBK supply was 10 planes a year and 8 planes in the final year for 28. UBK and MKI was made by Irkut, and MKK by KnAAPO. No MKI was completed when the first 20 UBK was completed, and the first 10 MKI was only completed after the last 8 UBK was completed. This is by Irkut. 2000-10 UBK, 2001-10 UBK, 2002-8 UBK, 10 MKI.

MKK started deliveries at the end of 2000, and has been on the average of 19 per year (2000-19, 2001-19, 2002-19, 2003-19). In 2004, they delivered 24.

this is from 2004.

http://www.irkut.com/en/news/news_archives/index.php?id48=127
THIRD PHASE Su-30MKI DELIVERY TO INDIA STARTED

So you have two factories, and the output at best is just between 30 to 40 at its peak and under 30 for the average.

Hardly the hundreds per year as you claim. Delivered to others? The MKM was only delivered last year. Only two Su-27s and two Su-30MK was delivered to Indonesia. Vietnam had two to four Su-30MK. That was pretty much after 2005.

I guess u havent added those 26 SU-27SM. between 2004-06 period. MKM was slow because of integration. Everything will be completed this year. all 24 to Venzueal completed this year. 26 Su-27SM completed this year. 16MKA completed this year. Not to mention 10 Su-34. and sending kits of atleast 16MKI.

The 32 you are mixing MKI and -K numbers. And yes, they probably have 70 to 80 but that’s because HAL is now assembling. Otherwise you see Irkut isn’t moving anything more than 12 per year on something as complex as the Su-30MKI.

HAL is assembling? once u have parts in place even Indonesia can assemble it.

How is Russian spending greater than the Chinese, which is officially now at 50 billion and unofficially at over 100 billion? Any official proof of that?

In weopons R&D and production Russia share is far greater. Russia energy prices are far below the market price. lowest world taxes but biggest budget surplus in the world.
I am not even going into material prices. Real budget of Russia will be well $120B. translating PPP will be alteast $360B.

http://russiatoday.ru/news/news/24316
Moscow’s budget now matches New York’s

In 2006, the Russian military budget was US$26 billion.

that are official figures.

Fight inflation? You are so funny and delirious. You once claimed that double digit inflation in Russia is good.

Inflation in Russia is double digits yearly. In fact it was a whooping 12% last year. The Russian military budget actually does not keep up with the inflation.

inflation is double digit but wages growth far outstrip inflation so they dont have fight inflation like other countries thats why putin has 80% popularity.

UN operations? You are barely into UN operations and can’t even control the war zones.

The fact remains, China is now assembling MiL-17 helicopters because you are incapable of meeting the demand of at least 80 per year.

fact remains that ur just beginning. come back when u reaches 80 figure. U cannot even make 10 J-11B per year after 10 years of licensing.

There are always false interviews with the Russians, e.g. arms reports of signed contracts that never actually happened.

IL-76 price is negotiated between Russia and China. You signed a contract, you live with it. Otherwise, you are guilty of lying and misrepresentation.

there is 3 way contract.

Oh really, why is the MRCA basically about Western fighters? Why is India looking at Orions? What are those Barak missiles?

from where u got this information. by the time MRCA reaches India it will be atleast a decade with huge mixture of components from different countries. Barak has been frozen. why is more A-50 with double the price of previous one? Tu-142 will remain in IN service for long time.

No one asked for that. You provide the IL-76 as specified in the contract and at the price in the contract.

If you want to offer upgrades, make a separate contract. Facts remain the Russians don’t know how to do business.

they are introducing new methods of business that they want to impose on rest of the world. Rest of world has to live with it just like China.

Well for one thing there isn’t a single thing that can be pointed to that demonstrates PAK-FA isn’t vaporware. Is there any piece of hardware that has been revealed (in more than press releases) as being for PAK-FA only? With the ATF there were numerous programs in the white world that were specifically for the ATF program. AESA technology, the YF119 & YF120, and many others all began in the 80s with test hardware being bench tested and so on WELL before any YF-22 or YF-23 flew. Sure, the convenient excuse is “they’re keeping everything secret for PAK-FA” but what’s the real answer? Personally I think “PAK-FA” will be another demonstrator along the lines of the S-37 or Mig 1.44 but looking a bit stealthy. I’m willing to eat my words but my money is that it’s not going to be the grand unveiling many think it will be.

well u have 117S engine to begin with. than there is AL-FM-3 on bench tests and after that more experimental engines coming next year. than u have large scale research in GaNs AESA. Two three pages back there is report of more than 50% structure made of composites. thats alot of evidence of active program. Not to mention large scale modernization of Knaapo, NAPO.
Most important is that Russia is going to spend 100 times more money in Ruble terms (aprreciating currency) on aviation projects compared to time when S-37/MIG-MFI projects. So there is money. there is end product just like Sukhoi SSJ where even Snecma and Thales are partners. I am sure they will not be investing there own money with firm making dubious claims.

some speculative information is already there on engine manufacture sight.

wingspan 14m
area 84sqm
weight 17tons
23.5tons Normal takeoff 5tons of fuel
34tons Maximum takeoff 10tons of fuel
service production between 2010 to 2015. 2012 is the most

http://www.salut.ru/
According to its fundamental characteristics it will not be inferior by known, into [t].[ch]. and F -22 Of raptor (“predator”), to aircraft. The calculation of experience of development and operating of foreign aircraft will make it possible to reach specific superiority over them.

On the first experimental models of new fighter, most likely, can be established the modernized version of engine AL -31[F]-[m]3. According to the data of developers in the regimes “full afterburner” and “maximum” it develops bench thrust 12500 kG and 7770 kG respectively. The specific consumption of fuel under maximum conditions of work is 0.75 kg/([kgs]*[ch]), on the afterburner – 1.92 kg/([kgs]*[ch]), the minimum cruising specific consumption of fuel – 0.67 kg/([kgs]*[ch]); the dry mass of engine is 1530 kgf, specific weight 0.122. Base price of engine AL -31 – on the order of 3 million dollars.

Aircraft will be one-place, unobtrusive, with the suspension armament on the internal units of suspension. Onboard radio-electronic equipment of aircraft there will be domestic development and production. Supposedly the wingspan can be about 14 m, area – 84 sq. m., height – about 4,5 m. in this case the mass of empty aircraft can be in the limits of 17 t, takeoff normal/maximum – 23,5/34 T. in this case the mass of fuel can compose 5-10 T. service range and radii of the combat employment of an aircraft they can be in the limits of 4000 km and 1500 km respectively.

In the composition of armament, most probably, there will be established the stationarily build it by 30- mm gun. Furthermore, aircraft will be equipped with the diverse variants of the contemporary high-precision controlled armament, which ensures destruction of ground-based (above-water) and aerial targets with the high probability.

According to the preliminary estimations Russian VVS can be required about 200-250 combat vehicles, whose series production according to the optimistic estimations can begin at best in the period of 2010-2012 yr., in the worse – about 2015.

It seems they are going to start this airborne stuff.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080520/107861494.html
MOSCOW, May 20 (RIA Novosti) – Russia started developing tactical laser weapons before the United States and has several prototypes of high-precision combat chemical lasers in its arsenal, a defense industry source said on Tuesday.

The Boeing Company said recently it had test-fired a high-energy chemical laser fitted aboard a C-130H aircraft for the first time. The successful ground tests, “a key milestone for the Advanced Tactical Laser Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration program,” took place on May 13 at the Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico.

Commenting on the announcement, the Russian expert said: “We tested a similar system back in 1972. Even then our “laser cannon” was capable of hitting targets with high precision.”

“We have moved far ahead since then, and the U.S. has to keep pace with our research and development,” he added.

At the same time, the source said Boeing had achieved its success in the development of military laser technology due to massive financing from the Pentagon.

“There is no doubt that the Americans are determined to continue the rapid development of tactical airborne laser weapons,” he said.

Scott Fancher, vice president and general manager of Boeing Missile Defense Systems, said in Monday’s announcement that the company will test-fire the laser in-flight at ground targets later this year.

ATL, which Boeing is developing for the U.S. Department of Defense, can “destroy damage or disable targets with little to no collateral damage, supporting missions on the battlefield and in urban operations.”

You will see that the “Great Leap Forward” will not work out, as it never works out. Taken past performance as a yardstick, we can even assume that the PAK-FA will run into even more serious problems that will not see it operational before 2020.

PAK-FA is not A-380 that they are going to make mistake. they already know the amount of work. inservice delivery is 2012. Sukhoi has only past history of Su-27. Went from third generation (Su-22/Su-24) to 4th generation in less than 10 years in Soviet times.

http://www.royfc.com/news/apr/2503apr07.html
The modern approach to the creation of radar absorbing materials intended for operation on an airplane is to have defined radar properties (the so-called dielectric and magnetic transparency) depending on the location of the application on the aircraft’s skin. The thickness of the coatings and the structure’s number of layers should be changed continuously according to a complex law which defined on the basis of computer modeling of the dispersion of electromagnetic waves on the airplane’s surface.

In the creation of controlled structures, materials and their application on the surface, such technologies as plasma, paint, arc and plasma-vacuum are used. And also nanotechnologies. Technology for the creation of ferromagnetic composite materials and so called artificial magnetics occupies a special place

Fundamental problems arise with the creation of such materials, part of which have not been resolved. Correspondingly, their resolution will permit significant advancement in the creation of an “a smart skin” of an airplane of the distant future. At the same time, one may consider that technologies already created satisfy the requirements presented for fifth generation airplanes.

The achievement of an airplane’s low radar signature requires research still at the stage of the building of aviation complexes. Among the tasks resolved are the organization of smooth transitions from wing to fuselage, which most fully are realized in an airplane’s integral plan, the location of weapons in internal fuselage compartments, and the selection of the sweep angles of the wing and tail.

As of today, important engineering problems have been resolved, among which are the reduction of the quantity of joints, the creation of large-size components, the assurance of high assembly precision based on the development of the airplane’s electronic model, and the wide use of information technologies.

A reduction of an aircraft’s signature has been obtained, which determines the operation of the on-board systems. Methods for rating and checking the effectiveness of the surface dispersion in the manufacturing, ground and flying conditions have been developed.

As a result of research that has been performed, an integrated technology for the provision of a low signature level developed in the constructive cooperation of industry and the Russian Academy of Sciences has begun. It has been checked with the assembly and flight tests of the Su-47 and Su-27M airplanes. And it is fully competitive in the world arms market, which provides a basis for investigating the question of exporting this technology.

Source: 25.04.03, Industriya-Inzhenernaya Gazeta

The truth is Russia isn’t producing any 21st century weapons. All its weapons under production are Cold War types updated with more modern electronics.

Name one weapon that is actually designed in the 21st Century that isn’t rooted in some Cold War design.

what is S-400/Pentysir/Brahmos/T-90/Lada/Borei/Yak-130. Even the Su-35 is new. it is avionics update.

Who cares. Read the industry standard semiconductor publications and I will ask what is the Russian share of the world semiconductor production which is less than 1% of the world.

they are only concentrating on high end military stuff. TSMC is $10b revenue foundry. Mikron is $300m revenue foundry but there are Angstrem and 3 others. It is certainly more than 1%.

Russia never produced over 30 Flankers per year after the Cold War. That’s a fact.

So how it supplied 300 Flankers in 10 years to Chinese along with 80 to IAF and that is 90s record. In 80s they produced over 400 in six years time.

And the Russians can’t produce 80 medium class helicopters which is why they’re sending kits to China.

I think you are living in past. to Chinese they are only sending kits and components to assemble it. It is not even license production. and they are now even capable to produce 120 to 150 per year which will increase to 500 per choppers per year. Just for your record Russia has over 2000 choppers in civillian operations. Couple of thousands in military. Just supplying parts and servicing those takes huge amount of work for factories and suppliers.

Which means that the Russians are lying when they claim Tarkshent isn’t capable of producing the IL-76. You only proved my point.

Nope they were not lying. the cost was low and at that time they didnot purchased the factory to take out the assembly line back to Russia and produce IL-114 in Taskent along with wings of Antonovs there. It is major restructuring that happened just this year. so they didnot know at that time.

Man, Star, you’ve actually managed to make Distiller himself come down from Mount Olympus to call you on your bull. Bravo. :p

Elite project like 5th generation has no relevance to living conditions in a country. it affects few. Distiller certianly does not understand 19th century methods to created 21st century superpower.

Anyways, I have no doubt in my mind that the PAK FA will be a very capable fighter regardless of which direction Sukhoi takes with it. May or may not best the Raptor, but it doesn’t need to. It just needs to compete with the F-35 (and F-22?) on the export market, as well as defend Russia skies. Besides, Sukhoi has a history of making effective jets (Flanker series, anyone?). And it seems like Russia is pulling all the stops to make this jet a reality. Combined with the Su-35BM, the RuAF will become an effective force whether we like it or not. 😮

The point is when Sukhoi was short of resources it didnot prevent it from going all the way to produce the best RRJ. Now russia is capable of purchasing entire supply chain.

http://www.simuser.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=266
Thales’s SSJ programme is managed by an engineering programme team in Toulouse in France, while a division has also been created in Moscow where a team (of which around half are Russian engineers) is working full time in close co-operation with SCAC. Design of the SSJ’s avionics architecture was completed last year, and now the focus has switched to testing of the equipment, initially on the ground using the “electronic bird”, and then in flight using the first development aircraft, says Thales.
The SSJ’s flightdeck design is similar to that developed by Thales for the Airbus A380. It incorporates five identical large rectangular LCD screens – two each for the pilots providing primary flight and navigation data, and a central screen for display of engine, systems and warning information. The cockpit also incorporates a Class 2 electronic flight bag as well as an option for a dual head-up display

Though I wonder, I’ve heard rumors that the PAK FA might actually have less raw performance than the Su-35. They might go with a Performance / Stealth complement with the two jets, which would be an interesting set-up; an alternative to the standard Hi-Lo mix.

PAK-FA is going to use simlar engine like Su-35 initially so it is possible its performance intially would be inferior to Su-35. but new experimental engine is going to be shown next year with parrallel testing there after in next prototypes. they are going to continously spend money year after year to improve it.