kelticI am going to get a basic example by Bush theories, let´s combat terrorism with bombs…..uhhh, ETA members are in the basque country, and protected by the nationalist goverment there and a sector of the public…..oppps, shall we see Aznar bombing Bilbao?. (Basque country main city). I though terrorism was fight with wise measures. Should Blair bomb Belfast?…..:rolleyes:
kelticOriginally posted by TTP
Keltic,First off I wish I was as smart as you! second There may be many other nations with Chemical weapons but you name me one that has used them in the last 50 years? Even Hitler didn’t try it!!! I do know the answer ;Saddam Hussein!! He’s also statred 2 wars, Invading Iran, and then when that didn’t go his way, he invades Kuwait because he didn’t want to pay them monies owed for his Iran war effort! Oh, by the way somewhere betwween these 2 wars he managed to GAS his OWN CITIZENS,
Gimme a break!!!!
OK friend, the arguments are solid, but let´s go behind. I don´t want to say that the US are the only responsible for Saddam hussein but mainly France and Germany who provided most of the chemicals. I point the fingers at many countries, included my own one. Sometimes politicians use sensitive arguments to get the people support. About Iraq,,,,the Babylonian despot…indeed a terrible guy, a threat…..but let´s see how he has been made. First he was a friendly ditatorship. Provided weapons, trained and thrown against iranians…because it was a good way to keep allatolas back. Well, attack with chemicals (many provided by Monsanto) and then….oppssss, Rumsfeld visited him a couple of days later, restore full relations with him…..why he wasn´t so impressed by his deeds?. I am not picking on the US only. I know France, German and Russia don´t care peace at all, but his interests, but interests dear friend is what moves all, included the US. And even our pathetic president, who moves himself by a imperial idea of what Spain should be. I don´t want an influencial Spain…..just we want to be quite and as humble as before. I think the real issue is not if Saddam has or not weapons or if he has used them or not. Is that the international rule, based on the UN after the WWII, tried to left behind an order of imperial powers, colonial past to give way a world of sovereign states and international legality based on attacks if being attacked. At least is what democracies should be based. NOW Saddam hasn´t attacked anyone, he was punished in the Gulf War, punished with 12 years of sanctions, but eventually he will be attack because three countries have stablished themselves that they are the world policemen and have the right to behave as bullies. I find that the world is like a big condominium, imagine you have got a neighbour who he´s a danger…….or you think he´s a danger…..quite subjective appreciation, so….would you kill him preventively?…..or go to the police if being attacked. That´s the base….open a big precedent. All countries attacking his neighbours if feeling threaten. Image…Pakistan nuking India, Spain attacking Morocco…Russia Georgia.. Real caos. Sorry for this long and tiresome thread. I promise not punishing you any longer.;)
kelticOriginally posted by TTP
Keltic,First off I wish I was as smart as you! second There may be many other nations with Chemical weapons but you name me one that has used them in the last 50 years? Even Hitler didn’t try it!!! I do know the answer ;Saddam Hussein!! He’s also statred 2 wars, Invading Iran, and then when that didn’t go his way, he invades Kuwait because he didn’t want to pay them monies owed for his Iran war effort! Oh, by the way somewhere betwween these 2 wars he managed to GAS his OWN CITIZENS,
Gimme a break!!!!
OK friend, the arguments are solid, but let´s go behind. I don´t want to say that the US are the only responsible for Saddam hussein but mainly France and Germany who provided most of the chemicals. I point the fingers at many countries, included my own one. Sometimes politicians use sensitive arguments to get the people support. About Iraq,,,,the Babylonian despot…indeed a terrible guy, a threat…..but let´s see how he has been made. First he was a friendly ditatorship. Provided weapons, trained and thrown against iranians…because it was a good way to keep allatolas back. Well, attack with chemicals (many provided by Monsanto) and then….oppssss, Rumsfeld visited him a couple of days later, restore full relations with him…..why he wasn´t so impressed by his deeds?. I am not picking on the US only. I know France, German and Russia don´t care peace at all, but his interests, but interests dear friend is what moves all, included the US. And even our pathetic president, who moves himself by a imperial idea of what Spain should be. I don´t want an influencial Spain…..just we want to be quite and as humble as before. I think the real issue is not if Saddam has or not weapons or if he has used them or not. Is that the international rule, based on the UN after the WWII, tried to left behind an order of imperial powers, colonial past to give way a world of sovereign states and international legality based on attacks if being attacked. At least is what democracies should be based. NOW Saddam hasn´t attacked anyone, he was punished in the Gulf War, punished with 12 years of sanctions, but eventually he will be attack because three countries have stablished themselves that they are the world policemen and have the right to behave as bullies. I find that the world is like a big condominium, imagine you have got a neighbour who he´s a danger…….or you think he´s a danger…..quite subjective appreciation, so….would you kill him preventively?…..or go to the police if being attacked. That´s the base….open a big precedent. All countries attacking his neighbours if feeling threaten. Image…Pakistan nuking India, Spain attacking Morocco…Russia Georgia.. Real caos. Sorry for this long and tiresome thread. I promise not punishing you any longer.;)
kelticRe: and…is that what YOUR propaganda teaches you?
Originally posted by Vortex
The USS Maine explosion is still so far unresolved with 100% certainty, but the most probable was either a mine outside or internal explosion.Well, We have other sources and theories, I suppose every country has interests in pointing at the other and manipulated history in his own interest.
If the Spanish empire was so great, why one after one in Latin America there’s calls for independence from Spain. Stop pointing fingers at the US and acknowledge that Spain was the problem in the past. Just like Iraq is the problem NOW, not the US.
-Did I say Spanish Empire was so great?, indeed the contrary, a gigant with muddle feet as we say here. All empires are based on blood domination and cruelty, and Spain as a huge empire had lots of skeletons. I didn´t brought history, only to remark that history is valid for certain time and if comparisions are stablished are to learn from mistakes. Spain was the problem then, but it seems that the US politicians doesn´t learn anything from history of colonial past.
kelticRe: and…is that what YOUR propaganda teaches you?
Originally posted by Vortex
The USS Maine explosion is still so far unresolved with 100% certainty, but the most probable was either a mine outside or internal explosion.Well, We have other sources and theories, I suppose every country has interests in pointing at the other and manipulated history in his own interest.
If the Spanish empire was so great, why one after one in Latin America there’s calls for independence from Spain. Stop pointing fingers at the US and acknowledge that Spain was the problem in the past. Just like Iraq is the problem NOW, not the US.
-Did I say Spanish Empire was so great?, indeed the contrary, a gigant with muddle feet as we say here. All empires are based on blood domination and cruelty, and Spain as a huge empire had lots of skeletons. I didn´t brought history, only to remark that history is valid for certain time and if comparisions are stablished are to learn from mistakes. Spain was the problem then, but it seems that the US politicians doesn´t learn anything from history of colonial past.
kelticOriginally posted by optimator
The US went to war with Spain because the USS Maine was
blown up in Havana Harbor..The US had every right to.
Seventy Years later we find out that a coal dust explosion
destroyed the Maine.Moral: Don’t believe anything you hear and only half of
what you see.
Sorry, dear friend. Is that what US textbooks tell. Maine was blown up by the US to find an excuse to declare the war to Spain and take Cuba from us.
kelticOriginally posted by optimator
The US went to war with Spain because the USS Maine was
blown up in Havana Harbor..The US had every right to.
Seventy Years later we find out that a coal dust explosion
destroyed the Maine.Moral: Don’t believe anything you hear and only half of
what you see.
Sorry, dear friend. Is that what US textbooks tell. Maine was blown up by the US to find an excuse to declare the war to Spain and take Cuba from us.
kelticOriginally posted by seahawk
Spain has some good reasons to follow the US.1. Spain has become economically strong. Yet France and Germany refuse to accept Spain as partner on the same level.
-Who told you that?.
2. After the conflict with Morocco Spain knwos what support they can expect from the EU in a time of crisis. And with a potential troubl spot on my border, I would pick friends which I can depend on in a time of need.
Spain, no political interests, no economical interests.
-Who told you that again?. Not big interests, but our “lovely” Aznar, in 1998, when Saddam was as cruel as today, signed a oil contract with the regime. (Repsol, Spanish oil company)
And who wants to decide if a war against Iraq is right or wrong ??
How many Iraqis were killed by the current regime since it came to power. How many people died in the wars it started ?-So let´s kill thousands more to help them. Who has given us the right to be the “Power Rangers” of mankind?
There are tons of biological and chemical wepaons unaccounted for. Yet Iraq claims to have none of them.
-In dozens of countries in the world.
On the other hand we have the possible high casulities in the civilian population.
Hard to decide what is worth – isn´t it ??
-For me it´s not worthy.
kelticOriginally posted by seahawk
Spain has some good reasons to follow the US.1. Spain has become economically strong. Yet France and Germany refuse to accept Spain as partner on the same level.
-Who told you that?.
2. After the conflict with Morocco Spain knwos what support they can expect from the EU in a time of crisis. And with a potential troubl spot on my border, I would pick friends which I can depend on in a time of need.
Spain, no political interests, no economical interests.
-Who told you that again?. Not big interests, but our “lovely” Aznar, in 1998, when Saddam was as cruel as today, signed a oil contract with the regime. (Repsol, Spanish oil company)
And who wants to decide if a war against Iraq is right or wrong ??
How many Iraqis were killed by the current regime since it came to power. How many people died in the wars it started ?-So let´s kill thousands more to help them. Who has given us the right to be the “Power Rangers” of mankind?
There are tons of biological and chemical wepaons unaccounted for. Yet Iraq claims to have none of them.
-In dozens of countries in the world.
On the other hand we have the possible high casulities in the civilian population.
Hard to decide what is worth – isn´t it ??
-For me it´s not worthy.
kelticOriginally posted by TTP
To All,I’m new to this forum, and I find your opinions facinating, if not a little disturbing. As an American and USAF pilot some of the opinions really offend me.
-Oppinions can´t offend as long as they are told in a correct way.
For Example, somebody mentioned that the US wants the Europeans to stay militarily weak so we can dominate you through NATO. Give me a break, Most Americans would love to send all our troops home, save Billions of Dolllars and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.
-Probably tue as fas as population is concerned, but not by the US stablishment who has been doing that for years.
Unfortunately, while the US may be far from perfect, the PATHETIC record of some European powers in the realm of foreign affairs leaves nothing to be proud of. Almost every problem facing the US and the world today can be attributed to European colonization of vast areas of the world, and two world wars, started by Europeans, with the result of MILLIONS DEAD, GENOCIDES, and the carving up of the old Ottoman empire into nations with little regard for natural borders and the rights of the indigenous people who lived there (Balkans, Palestinians, the Middle East) So Please don’t Preach to this American!!
-Great the US doesn´t have anything to do with the world problems. We have had a bloody history, but it has been that because we have a long history, and since we learn from errors, we don´t want to repeat them. It seems that the US is working extensively to match us in this point. Don´t remove the past, since there are skeletons in all closets.
Second, try to understand the US is the Intended target of these terrorist groups, we’ve been attcked once,
-Did you ever wonder why?
and Most Americans believe that if Saddam gets some Nukes or other WMD he wouldn’t think twice about using them on us,
-He hasn´t used them in the last 12 years. Do you have hints to suppose he´ll do it in the future?. I remind that there are more than 100 ditatorships in the world with WMD…..
History will note that these same “peace protesters” were out there in the 80’s decrying Reagan as a Cowboy, playing nuclear poker with the Russians, but his policy led to the fall of Communism (another European by-product) and allowed freedom to bloom in Eastern Europe.
-I suppose Mr Gorbachov, and other reformers, and the own russian had anything to do with the change, hadn´t they?. Ten million Spaniards calling for peace aren´t particularly “commies”.
Time will tell who’s right, But I know that appeasing Saddam will not lead to anything but more dead Americans. And that is unacceptable to George Bush.
kelticOriginally posted by TTP
To All,I’m new to this forum, and I find your opinions facinating, if not a little disturbing. As an American and USAF pilot some of the opinions really offend me.
-Oppinions can´t offend as long as they are told in a correct way.
For Example, somebody mentioned that the US wants the Europeans to stay militarily weak so we can dominate you through NATO. Give me a break, Most Americans would love to send all our troops home, save Billions of Dolllars and let the rest of the world fend for themselves.
-Probably tue as fas as population is concerned, but not by the US stablishment who has been doing that for years.
Unfortunately, while the US may be far from perfect, the PATHETIC record of some European powers in the realm of foreign affairs leaves nothing to be proud of. Almost every problem facing the US and the world today can be attributed to European colonization of vast areas of the world, and two world wars, started by Europeans, with the result of MILLIONS DEAD, GENOCIDES, and the carving up of the old Ottoman empire into nations with little regard for natural borders and the rights of the indigenous people who lived there (Balkans, Palestinians, the Middle East) So Please don’t Preach to this American!!
-Great the US doesn´t have anything to do with the world problems. We have had a bloody history, but it has been that because we have a long history, and since we learn from errors, we don´t want to repeat them. It seems that the US is working extensively to match us in this point. Don´t remove the past, since there are skeletons in all closets.
Second, try to understand the US is the Intended target of these terrorist groups, we’ve been attcked once,
-Did you ever wonder why?
and Most Americans believe that if Saddam gets some Nukes or other WMD he wouldn’t think twice about using them on us,
-He hasn´t used them in the last 12 years. Do you have hints to suppose he´ll do it in the future?. I remind that there are more than 100 ditatorships in the world with WMD…..
History will note that these same “peace protesters” were out there in the 80’s decrying Reagan as a Cowboy, playing nuclear poker with the Russians, but his policy led to the fall of Communism (another European by-product) and allowed freedom to bloom in Eastern Europe.
-I suppose Mr Gorbachov, and other reformers, and the own russian had anything to do with the change, hadn´t they?. Ten million Spaniards calling for peace aren´t particularly “commies”.
Time will tell who’s right, But I know that appeasing Saddam will not lead to anything but more dead Americans. And that is unacceptable to George Bush.
kelticOriginally posted by ELP
500,000. Sounds like a number somebody just made up. Based on what source?
Read on a newpaper. It´s an approximate calculation, based on the previous war, extend of the operation, and mixture of different sources (Pentagon, UN, Amnesty International…and so on), lesser of much more it will a tragedy. I commit a mistake, I refered to to total amount of casualties.
kelticOriginally posted by ELP
500,000. Sounds like a number somebody just made up. Based on what source?
Read on a newpaper. It´s an approximate calculation, based on the previous war, extend of the operation, and mixture of different sources (Pentagon, UN, Amnesty International…and so on), lesser of much more it will a tragedy. I commit a mistake, I refered to to total amount of casualties.
kelticRe: wow..you sure can predict the future.
Originally posted by Vortex
If you can predict 500,000 will die, can you also predict if Saddam is going to attack anybody without being provoked in the future and lets get this charade over with. This is the same issue as if during WWII, the US says, well people in Germany will get rid of Hitler…surely those mistreated JEWS will get get rid of him. No, maybe the French resistence will get rid of him…no, the Poles will certainly get rid of him…we’ll just sit back and watch comfortably from this side of the world. And to Japan in WWII, why we even bother to embargo oil and materials to them…if people really don’t like the Japanese all across East Asia and Manchuria, surely they’ll rise up against the Japanese…eventually…yeah, eventually, so again, we should’ve just set back and watch the show.
WWII, different time, different case, only similar in one case, one country will be invaded again. It was about WMD compliance, wasn´t it?.
kelticRe: wow..you sure can predict the future.
Originally posted by Vortex
If you can predict 500,000 will die, can you also predict if Saddam is going to attack anybody without being provoked in the future and lets get this charade over with. This is the same issue as if during WWII, the US says, well people in Germany will get rid of Hitler…surely those mistreated JEWS will get get rid of him. No, maybe the French resistence will get rid of him…no, the Poles will certainly get rid of him…we’ll just sit back and watch comfortably from this side of the world. And to Japan in WWII, why we even bother to embargo oil and materials to them…if people really don’t like the Japanese all across East Asia and Manchuria, surely they’ll rise up against the Japanese…eventually…yeah, eventually, so again, we should’ve just set back and watch the show.
WWII, different time, different case, only similar in one case, one country will be invaded again. It was about WMD compliance, wasn´t it?.
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