RimmerThe labour in India is cheaper than what any European country can ever manage. So while the exact price is not known it is safe to assume that it will be much lesser than a similarly speced Western fighter.
The Gripen NG for example will be much more expensive compared to the C/D than the Tejas MK2 is compared to the MK1. So Tejas will always have a price advantage. If you are willing to pay extra for SAAB’s pedigree and proven track-record and Gripens maturity as a fighter over the Tejas is an entirely different matter altogether.
I am afraid not. The whole ‘cheaper labour’ debate is hard to prove in this case.
Swedish labour costs are much higher then France, but Rafael is still more expensive.
Do you have any stats on this?
Especially if alot of LCA compnenents are imported (engine weapons etc), additionally Gripen (at present) has much larger production run.
RimmerThe Tejas will have most of what Gripen has and at a cheaper price than what the Swedes could ever offer it.
But if I am looking for fighters and I have the money for the Gripen, I will always go for it over the Tejas.
Unless final engine, final production run and weapons fit is known, how can you or anyone, even HAL possibly have ANY idea on price?
RimmerSorry, but if all things were equal, there is no way anyone would choose LCA over Gripen. Just absolutely no way.
The list of advantges of Gripen is way too long…..
RimmerIt is you who dragged JF 17 into the thread in an earlier post not me.
SD 10 and MICA being looked at you do not know yet right ?
The current Tejas program has an engine. the future one will have an engine, As it is not flying yet, the lack of an engine is a non issue.
HAL will need to significantly upgrade its facilities to even consider exporting the Tejas.
Calm down dear, its only a forum, no oneis accusing you of anything!
I have no idea on which BVR is finally being integrated, but as first 50 batch is with Chinese radar I am assuming SD-10.
If you are looking to export a plane, people will want to know what engine it has. This leads me back perfectky to the orginal point I made about this thread. With so much uncertainty surrounding this project, it is still to early to start talking about it being next F-16 on export market.
RimmerNever knew the extent of PAF international relief operations. PAF do not publicise this aspect very much!
This sort of thing makes me very proud of our Fiza’Ya
1998
C-130 07
(include 06 aerial delivery missions) Feb, 98 Afghanistan
(Khojagarh) Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets & medicines = 11 tons
Aerial delivery of edibles = 1,50,000 lbs
Earthquake Relief Operations
1999
C-130 &
B-707
11
Apr – May, 99
Albania
(Tirana)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 130 tons
Relief Goods for war torn people of Kosovo
C-130 &
B-707
07
Aug, 99
Turkey
(Istanbul & Ankara)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 100 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
2001
C-130 &
B-707)
06
Jan- Feb, 01
India
(Ahmedabad)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =80 tons Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
2002
C-130
01
28 Mar, 02
Afghanistan
(Kabul)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 11 tons Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
2003
C-130
05
08-10 Feb, 03
Chitral
Passengers missions
To airlift stranded people due bad weather
C-130
01
10 Apr, 03
Gilgit
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, food items & medicines = 13 tons
Relief goods for earthquake affected Northern Areas
C-130
02
20 May, 03
Skardu
20,000 liters of Diesel
Air transportation of fuel on urgent basis
B-707
01
Jun, 03
Algeria
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =32 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
B-707
01
19 Jun, 03
Iraq
(Baghdad)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =32 tons
Relief Goods for war affected people
C-130
02
22 July, 03
Balochistan
(Quetta)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets & medicines = 22 tons
Relief Goods for rain & flood affected people
B-707
01
12 Aug, 03
Iraq
(Baghdad)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =32 tons
Relief Goods for war affected people
C-130
12
Dec, 2003
Iran (Bam)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =120 tons
Earthquake Relief Flights
2004
C-130
07
25 Dec, 03 to
29 Jan, 04
Iran (Bam)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 77 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
C-130
13
27 Dec, 04 to 26 Jan, 05
Indonesia,
Sri Lanka & Maldives
169 tons relief goods (tents, Blankets, edibles, medicines and medical teams)
Tsunami Relief Operations
2005
C-130
05
12 Feb to 04 Mar, 2005
Balouchistan
(Gwadar, Turbat & Pasni)
Relief goods = 1,01,845 lbs
Evacuation of flood victims = 214 per
Flood Relief Ops
C-130
CN-235
B-707
Y-12
60 x C-130
14 x CN-235
49 x B-707
160 x Y -12
10 Oct, 05 to 26 Jan, 06
Northern Areas and AJ & K
Load airlifted 2442 tons
Evacuations (injured & attendants) = 3342 per
Earthquake Relief Operations
2006
C-130
01
03 April, 06
Iran
(Kirman Shah)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 12 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
B-707 C-130
04
(02 each
B-707 & C-130)
May- Jun, 06
Indonesia
(Jakarta)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 66 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
C-130
259
13 Jul, 06 to 14 Feb, 07
Chitral and Gilgit
Passengers = 39,525
Cargo = 13,41,610 lbs
C-130 Chartered Flights for PIAC to Chitral and Gilgit due to grounding of PIAC Fokker Fleet
B-707 & C-130
07
Sep – Oct 06
Lebanon, Syria and Beirut
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 78 tons
Humanitarian Assistance for War victims
2007
C-130
116 Missions
28 Jun to
12 Jul, 07
Balouchistan
Relief goods = 1088 tons
Evacuation of causalities / affectees = 1074 per
Flood Relief Ops
C-130
07
02 – 12 Apr and
09 May, 07
Chitral
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 84 tons
Relief Flights for snow, rain and slide affectees
C-130 &
DA-20
01 each
22 Feb, 07
India
(New Delhi)
Min of Interior Visit & Evacuation of causalities and injured people
Samjhota Express Blast
C-130
01
14 Jun, 07
China
(Urumqi)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines =12 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
C-130
01
18 Aug, 07
China
(Urumqi)
Relief goods comprising Tents, Blankets, Edibles & medicines = 12 tons
Relief Goods for Flood victims
C-130
06
23 Nov-18 Dec, 07
Bangladesh
(Dhaka & Barisal)
Relief goods comprising tents, Blankets, edibles, medicines and Army medical Hospital = 72 tons
Relief Goods for Cyclone affected people
2008
C-130
02
11 May, 08
Myanmar
(Yangoon)
Relief goods comprising tents, Blankets, edibles & medicines = 24 tons
Relief Goods for Cyclone affected people
C-130
06
16 to 24 May, 08
China
(Lanzhou)
Relief goods comprising tents, Blankets, edibles & medicines = 72 tons
Relief Goods for Earthquake victims
C-130
13
29 Oct to 02 Nov, 08
Balouchistan
(Quetta)
Relief goods (tents, mattresses, food items & medicines) = 172.96 tons
Earthquake Relief Ops
RimmerRimmerI am still to get Some Info on JF-17 yet, i have posted this questions on many forums but still no answer ???
1) what all western equipments will be integrated in to JF-17? As far as i know the PAF have none of its own. Which western Engine will be integrated ? After all this western gizmo’s added Any body believes JF-17 cost will be still 15 Million ?
2) What is PAF’c or Pakistan’s contribution to JF-17? ASR? So i will call it a chines fighter made according to PAF’s requirement and Licence build in Pakistan.
3) What all weapons integrated in to JF-17? if none how can it get Operational clearance?
1) Simply dont know. French engines have been mention. Italian and French avionics also mentioned according to dfferent reports.
2) Yes, liscence built in Pakistan
3) Weapons still classified, but initially Chinese I assume. There is no way it will be given to an operational squadron (one that is actually on front line in War on Terror) without weapons clearence. PAF may actually not want to advertise what weapons specifically, but I have my suspicions.
Hope this answers your questions.
RimmerAs a replacement for a MiG-21/F-7/F-5 the Tejas is too expensive. By that even used F-16s/MiG-29s are more capable options.
This is a good point. I think there is almost too many options out there for nations looking for fighter planes and not enough customers!
Deals are being fought over more feircly then in the past.
RimmerI have asked you 4 times now not to respond to my posts after past outbursts you have made, you agreed this was a good idea.
What has changed your mind?
RimmerNo it does not. But it just shows up that he is talking out of his backside.
Saying the LCA does not have an engine is absolute fallacy.
Many of the above said market will be more than happy with the LCA MK1.
Please,lets got over obesession with my backside hey? 😉
I am right in assuming that LCA MK2 is the one IAF will be inducting and India looking to exprot? Yes or no?
It, currentky has no SELECTED engine. Surley even you can comprehend this?
RimmerHow can one take such posters serious. 😉
It is hard, but at the same time fun! 😉
RimmerThe JF-17 has been rejected by the primary manufacturer, China. It has been purchased by PAF on an outstanding credit loan of a few hundred million dollars from China. Since PAC Kamra itself cannot make any profit on this, considering it has “bankrolled” it’s development, exports are out of question for the forseable future.
Note that it’s engine emits smoke, and the current PAF chief is on record saying that a European engine will be sought for JF-17 (news report posted much earlier) in future batches. It is clear that PAF is not satisfied with the RD-93.
PAF chief has only expressed that a European package may be sought in the future batch beyond the current batch of 40. There have been no negotiations for any European package so far, bar for the speculated Italian pulse doppler radar.
The price of JF-17 has very recently been estimated to finally cost $20 m to $23 million, and not $15 million as conventionally believed.
A fighter jet, which is not being inducted in the original Air Force (PLAAF), will have little export prospects. Please note that nations like Algeria, Nigeria, Myanmar and Morocco are purchasing Su-30, MiG-29 and Rafales. It is hard to see a low-medium fighter like JF-17 compete with such jets.
Again, this is not place to start a JF-17 V LCA debate, but dont want to be accused of not answering! :p
Please, lets notstart making up reasons why China is not inducting JF-17. You dont actually know. It was primarily PAF that wanted it and China have JF-17. If you have firm reasons then share,but that is your opinion.
Smoke issue resolved loooooong way back, again, please check your sources.
France is offering avionics package as is Italy.
RD-93 is good but you are right, PAF want better engine with more power and less TBO. However point remains, engine integration is done. With LCA MK2 this is not the case.
JF-17 export success is by no means assured (unlike LCA’s which will be a massive export hit no doubt). China and Pakistan have alot of work to do, yet already interest is being expressed by the likes of Azerbaijan, Eygpt and Iran.
Right now China and Pak can have conversations about JF-17, both on wespons, prices, delivery timetables etc.
LCA is a long way from this point.
RimmerRimmer do not attempt to deliberatley derail threads.
As of now the LCA has an engine its the GE F 404 IN.
India could get a half cooked LCA into service but for the strignant demands of its airforce and the situation being not as desperate as with the PAF.
What Radar and BVR combo is the JF 17 having. has BVR weapons been tested ?
Purpose of the thread is not to discuss JF-17
As many never tire of pointing out, GE engine is for MK1. For MK2 (The version I assume they want to export) no engine as of yet.
SD-10 is being looked at as is MICA.
Point being that these will be isues that need to be looked at of LCA is to become an export success no?
RimmerIn Asia non country has that capability really. The technology level in mind Japan and China may have that capability.
I would so China is now attatining capability.
Economic and political
Own weapons to offer as package
Past performance selling F-6/F-7 to many nations
RimmerRimmer why?
You laid bait and now you have attracted flames.
Now I see debate will turn into, how much Pakistan helped design JF 17, which is boring subject to read again.
Apologies if you think that. I just find it hard to think how a plan that is still being flight tested can be claimed to be the fighter world’s next export success. The LCA, on paper, is a very impressive plane and India should be proud of what it has acheived.I dont seek to deny that, but as we all know, the export market is a very different ball game.
Countries that traditionally do well on the export areana have the following
1) An established aircrat industrial base
2) Ability to develop weapons and integrate these on any fighter it exports
3) Exconomic and political clout
4) Past proven hardware
India is a far way off this. For example, should they offer LCA for export can they offer a wide variety of Indian made air to air and air to surface weapons as well?
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