RimmerThat’s the point or to put it another way round, what fighter can you get for $25 million? Defence ministries do not have bottomless budgets to buy, fly and maintain materiel. In another thread here I see that Rumania may be considering acquiring “free” used F-16’s because it needs to find a fighter that it can afford. I suspect that the through life cost of “free” used F-16’s will be a lot higher than the through life cost of Tejas MkII’s where you have to get your wallet out to buy new ones in the first place.
And what about those other countries with old MiG-21’s, F-16’s and Mirages that will need replacement in the coming years? Some of them will certainly be interested in a low cost fighter such as Tejas.
I am sure many air forces would love a few squadrons of F-22’s but air forces can’t buy anything because they don’t have any money. Defence ministries don’t have any money either. Governments have money but if they don’t want to fund the defence ministry’s desire to acquire expensive fighters for the air force, the defence ministry isn’t going to have the funds to buy them.
I think this market is already being cornered by Gripen/T-50
Those who can afford high end replacments for F-16/M2K will go for F-35/Rafael
Those who want lower end can go for Gripen
Those who want something even lower end can go for JF-17
I have not even started about all the new MIG-29 versions users can go for too!
It is really hard to see where LCA’s niche is in all this. As someone pointed out
if someone did not want a US/Euro/China/Russia option there maybe a case for it, but then you are looking at a very narrow field….
RimmerRimmer,
If JF-17 which is not in operational service of PLAAF, but only been exported to PAK can be a Mini-rafale , why can’t the LCA be a F-16??? :D:
1) In June JF-17 will be in frontline operational service with a relatively large,we equipped air force
2) Has a fully integrated and functioning engine
3) Wespons systems and integration practically completed. Choice of Euro/Chinese systems
4) Operational doctrine being developed
5) Price is known
6) China/Pak already in talks with potential customers
I am not saying LCA can never reach thi stage, but it is someway off compared to JF-17. I am also certain JF-17 will be a lower cost option.
RimmerAn aircraft with no engne selected or integrated, weight issues (Jan diet!?) and not in operational service with its home air force, with no idea of approx export price, yet t may become next F-16!?
:confused:
RimmerBefore we all found teh internet, books like these were theonly way to really love planes.
RIP
RimmerArmed UAV, not UCAV.:) UCAV is something totally different. Unless Im mistaken, various countries have armed UAVs and/or projects going on. Putting an easterb LGB onto a western system shouldn’t be anything major.
Western designator?
RimmerGift of Mirage from PAF to Chinese Aviation Museum. Cross posting from PAF thread.
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/01/dassault-mirage-iii-at-beijings.html
RimmerGift of Mirage to Chinese aviation museum.
http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2010/01/dassault-mirage-iii-at-beijings.html
RimmerThe sale was approved, though it seems that Pakistan decided against it for the time being at least.
PAC have gained considerable experience in terms of weapons integration/evaluation. Most of this stuff for JF-17 is being done in Pakistan. As for what weapon, I think its likely to be an LGB, probably of chinese origin.
That would be pretty cool. Not just true integration between West and East systems, but first UCAV in South Asia.
First one outside of US?
RimmerThere have been indications that this would be done at home. Pakistani companies have also said that they could produce armed UAVs at home in approx. 5 years time, if goverment provides them with financial resources.
Surely Selex would be best of doing this? Besides, do we have a light enough missile in house?
RimmerRD-93 or WS-13? In Russia or China? I guess we are talking about murky waters here. A great many things are not clear for the time being. But yes, it would all be through China. So, in a sense, it is not really PAF’s headache how China gets them done as long as they are done. However, considering the numbers of JF-17 that PAF is planning and as long as they retain the engine (RD-93/derivative), I think PAF would prefer to get them done at home.
In terms of build up, PN could never compete with INs. IN has totally different aims (for the future) than PN. PN’s primary aim is and would remain coastal defence and prevention of a naval blockade (for which subs are and would remain their primary asset). Right now, PN’s surface combatants only have terminal point defence capabilities, and these would be enhanced to area defence (most likely) through Chinese acquisitions. PN would enhance its anti sub capability through further inductions of P-3Cs/Harpoon, and I guess more advanced Chinese antiship missiles are only a matter of time. I can’t really imagine PN having a separate naval arm, but PAF would provide them with aerial cover. May be this is why PN has not bough hawkeye 2000 when that was offered?
Well, we all know about chinese involvement in Gwadar project and defence relations between Pak/China would only grow in the forseeble future. As for the use of nuke, unless Im mistaken a complete naval bloackade of Pakistan is one of the threshold (for the use of nukes) in Pakistani nuclear doctrine.
I dont think PN needs more P-3Cs. 10 are enough. We dont have a massive coastline to defend. More then 10 and it will become a nightmare defending these during war and having enough crews to ensure maximum utilisation.
The P-3C has incredible range, they can stay on station for ages.
Glad PN is not going for Hawkeye (is this news confirmed by the way!?). The last thing Pakistan needs is a 3rd AWACs system!
From what I have read Erieye can perform the role overwater just as well.
RimmerAny news on Selex’s efforts to weaponise the Falco? I googled but nothing came up.
RimmerYes. The same politics that delayed the rd-93. The ws-10 would offer a solution with less strings attached.
RD-93was delayed!? First every time I have heard this. I assume you have a source for that…..or no let me guess…..doh!
RimmerI think even PAF must be geting headache with different types of VIP/transport aircraft they are operating. Cannot be that good for availability, maintenence or traning.
C-130
CN-235
SAAB 2000
Y-12
707
IL-76
Airbus A310
Gulfstream
Citation Excel
Phenom 100
Major headache! 🙁
Rimmertransport-refuel-awacs.
It means that Hercules will be less needed. More and more non US platforms.
Hercules will always be needed! 😉
They tried to replace it, and the next best thing was just makeing another Hercules in form of J version. After upgrades and 7 refurbed planes, PAF Herc fleet will be going for at least another 10 years!
RimmerLooks like PAF is standadising on IL-76 as both Air Refuellers and Chinese AWACs platform.
Early warning aircraft inducted into PAF
By Iftikhar A. Khan & Yaqoob Malik
Friday, 01 Jan, 2010
ISLAMABAD / ATTOCK: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) took a major step forward in transforming itself into a modern force by inducting the first Saab-2000 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) Aircraft into its fleet.
The ERIEYE radar system mounted on a turboprop aircraft will enable the PAF to detect all aircraft taking off from and landing at all forward Indian airbases adjacent to Pakistan and also to identify the type of aircraft, their weapons systems, vector and altitude.
The radar capabilities and range of the system enable the operator to receive an early warning in case of pre-emptive attacks from across the border.
Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was the chief guest at the induction ceremony at PAF’s Minhas Airbase in Kamra. The ceremony was attended by the Swedish ambassador.
Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar said PAF’s long-standing requirement for airborne early warning capability had been met with the induction of the Swedish surveillance system which would make air defence more effective and bring about a major change in its operational concept and employment.
With the induction of the AEW&C aircraft, the PAF has become one of a few forces in the world to have an airborne early warning and control capability.The air chief assured the nation that the PAF would not spare any effort to make the defence of the country impregnable.
The induction of Saab-2000, he said, would help counter any threat to the country’s sovereignty.Talking to reporters after the ceremony, he said the aircraft had the capability to detect anything moving in the air, including drones.
He said the PAF would get three more AEW&C aircraft in 2010 under a $866 million deal.He said Pakistan would also start receiving four IL-76 AEW&C aircraft from China in 2011.
He said negotiations were under way with China for J-10 fighter jets.
He said Pakistan would get 18 Block-52 F-16s from the US by July 2010 and ground to air missiles from Italy by the end of the year.
He said the first squadron of JF-17 Thunder planes would be operational by June.
Swedish Ambassador Ulrika Sundberg said the ERIEYE offered solutions to secure timely flows of information and protect infrastructure. She said Saab’s was one of the most advanced surveillance systems in the world and could serve both military and civilian purposes.
The system could be a force enabler as well as multiplier in efforts to ensure security and stability, she said.
“It is the result of very innovative thinking by both parties on how surveillance systems can contribute to enhancing overall human security, not only in Pakistan and the region, but also worldwide.”
She praised the professional insight of PAF officers involved in the project and the valuable inputs given by them towards the development of the system.
Saab’s Executive Vice-President Dan Ake Enstedt and the Chief Project Director of project Horizon, Air Commodore Perci Edul Virjee, also spoke.The aircraft was placed on display on the occasion.
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