lukosBy no means will the Mi-28NM be a fifth gen attack helicopter. The hell is he talking about? The Mi-28NM upgraded is well known.
It was difficult to tell whether the “Future Attack Helicopter” they mention is a different aircraft altogether.
Shibitov did not specify the characteristics of the future combat helicopter, but he was quoted earlier by the Russian media as saying that the criteria for a fifth-generation attack helicopter must include low radar signature, an extended flying range, an advanced weapons control system, the capability to combat fighter jets and have a speed of up to 600 kilometers (370 miles) per hour.
I can’t see how a modified Havoc will hit 600kph either unless they have some kind of Airwolf mod.;)
lukosIf you are flying a high-altitude mission profile, it probably won’t make any difference whether it is day or night (medium range radar-guided SAMs work the same 24 hours a day): Night time might be a problem for fighters with poor BVR capabilities (I mean the fighters defending airspace against strike missions)?
That’s the problem, no one can deny that flying at altitude helps with survivability but unfortunately the A-10 wasn’t designed to do that, it was designed for low altitude flying. Up high, it would stand out like a sore thumb and would be completely blind and toothless, having no radar or ARM capacity. So it would need constant CAP and SEAD/DEAD coverage. So all of a sudden that cost for one A-10 has turned into the cost for an A-10, a CAP aircraft, an EW aircraft and a DEAD aircraft. So that’s one A-10, one F-15C/D (or F-22A), one EA-18G and one F-18E/F, all of which could be doing other things. The element of surprise is gone, the strike package can be detected from 1,000km away, maybe more and a stealth attack has turned into a flying circus.
Due to a lack of SAR, certain weather conditions would also make an A-10C’s targeting useless above the cloud layer and also give its pilot approximately the same SA as an amoeba. It’s RCS is so high and RWR so imprecise that it’s jamming would border on defunct against even moderately competent radar threats. The idea of an A-10 trying to kinetically evade a missile at high altitude would also border on hilarious.
lukosWow, nice coverage, not. You provide no relevant data to base your conclusions on. The fact Ukraine was a part of USSR 25 years ago doesn’t mean anything for their CURRENT pilot skill level. IIRC, most of their planes are not in flyable state as the budget is pretty tight. Probably same goes for the number of flying hours the pilots get.
And you still don’t know what missions and mission parts the planes were flying on when they were shot down (e.g. was it a low-level CAS) and how skillfully were they employed. Besides, since the Ukrainian Air Force has only a few somewhat modernized Su-25s, the ones shot down were probably basic old models whose RWS system is old, has no jamming equipment and has no way of detecting IR missiles, unlike the current A-10C discussed here.
Ukrainian pilots (and military in general) have been training with Russians long after the USSR split.
Lately Ukraine is struggling financially due to self-imposed economic sanctions but up until recently there’s no reason to suspect their air force was in massive disrepair.
AFAIK the A-10C has no IR jammer and it would be of limited use against a modern dual waveband seeker anyway. Do flares even still work against modern IIR seekers? If jamming was thought to be full-proof against more modern threats, we wouldn’t have bothered with stealth aircraft.
Where the A-10 has faced significant S2A threats several have been lost. Six A-10As (still with countermeasures and MWS) were lost to IR SAMs in Desert Storm and one in Iraqi Freedom. Three also returned with damage in Desert Storm and were subsequently written off. So all in all, the A-10 hasn’t really faired any better than the Su-25 when it’s faced equivalent SAM threats.
http://www.gao.gov/archive/1997/ns97134.pdf
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/uscentaf_oif_report_30apr2003.pdf
So I’m sorry to say that your little non-equivalent diversion first posted here:
is irrelevant. The MANPADS used were few and far between in Afghanistan, old and completely useless. Most of them probably failed of their own accord, like typical late ’70s/early ’80s missiles. If you posture that the Ukrainian air force is in disrepair and the pilots inexperienced, then what can you assume about 30+ year-old Stingers (designed in the late ’60s, produced from late ’70s) in the hands of the Taliban?
lukosFive minutes search for ‘afghanistan wikileaks manpads’ results in a link to a Daily Telegraph piece
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7910482/Wikileaks-Afghanistan-Taliban-used-heat-seeker-missiles-against-Nato-helicopter.html
…in which there’s a link to wikileaks
http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010/
…which links on to WarDiaries
http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/
…which has a search function
http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/search/?q=manpads&sort=date&release=Afghanistan
Thanks. It’s nice when someone actually provides links rather than just rattling on. Still doesn’t detract from the original point about how vulnerable non-stealthy aircraft are to modern S2A threats.
This was the original point:
Which was then neatly side-tracked here with a dissimilar comparison against old second-rate MANPADS (1980s Stingers according to only official source):
So the original point still stands after all that but thanks for the sidetrack and wasted time wrt the post link immediately above.
lukosPERM, December 19 (RIA Novosti) – It could take Russia about three years to complete the development of a fifth-generation attack helicopter and start testing its prototype, a defense industry official said Wednesday.
The Mi-28NM, a modernized version of the Mi-28N Night Hunter attack helicopter that is being upgraded to standards of a fifth-generation aircraft, has been in development since 2008.
“I think we will need no more than three years to develop a new modernized version of the Mi-28N helicopter,” said Andrei Shibitov, chief executive officer of the Russian Helicopters company.
Shibitov did not specify the characteristics of the future combat helicopter, but he was quoted earlier by the Russian media as saying that the criteria for a fifth-generation attack helicopter must include low radar signature, an extended flying range, an advanced weapons control system, the capability to combat fighter jets and have a speed of up to 600 kilometers (370 miles) per hour.
lukosRussia will fly the prototype next-generation strategic bomber in 2019 and develop a new interceptor by 2020 to replace the MiG-31 fleet. Addressing the media on Russian Air Force Day (August 12) the service’s commander Gen. Victor Bondarev also said a new a combat aircraft with forward-swept wings is in development and could emerge soon as a prototype.
Production of the PAKDA strategic bomber will start in 2021-22, with flight tests completing in 2023 so that entry-into-service can take place later that year, according to Bondarev. The commander confirmed that the new bomber is subsonic. It will eventually replace the Tu-95 and the Tu-160.
In a recent interaction with the media, head of Russia’s United Engine Corporation (ODK) Vladislav Mosolov was quoted as saying that the PAKDA’s engine will be developed on the base of the Tu-160’s NK-32 “second edition” motor and use its gas-generator (core). ODK intends to invest $220 million of its own money into the project in addition to the approved governmental funding.
The new interceptor is sometimes referred to as the MiG-41. Bondarev said it forms part of the current Russian armament program ending in 2020. Plans call for replacement of the entire MiG-31 fleet by 2028.
Meanwhile, operational examples of the Sukhoi fifth-generation fighter PAKFA (manufacturer’s designation T-50) will be delivered to the Russian air force in 2016. Today, one industry-owned T-50 already flies with military pilots at the controls in the flight-test and armament trials center (Russian acronym GLITS) at Akhtubinsk airbase in southern Russia.
Bondarev confirmed that earlier this year the Russian MoD placed an order worth more than $470 million for 16 MiG-29SMT multirole lightweight fighters. Delivery is due within “two-three years.” These will supplement 28 such aircraft already in service. Bondarev further stated that the contract for the MiG-35 will be signed later this year. The Russian air force will continue upgrade efforts on the MiG-29 fleet so as to keep them in service for “another 10 to 15 years, maybe more.”
The commander also revealed that earlier plans for a light strike aircraft based on the Yak-130 jet trainer platform have been dropped.
Bondarev expects deliveries of Il-76MD-90A strategic airlifters to commence later this year, with 39 contracted for delivery by 2020. The air force also wants to receive some Il-96 airliners, from the order for 14 placed recently by the Russian government, for delivery by 2024. The military applications would include air tanker, as well as transport roles, according to Bondarev.
The Russian air force continues to build up its presence in the Arctic region. Temp and Rogachevo aerodromes have been re-opened, and work is in progress in Tiksi, Anadyr and Vorkuta. “We must withhold that region. Almost 49 percent of the Arctic territory must belong to Russia, and we shall defend it,” Bondarev said. Plans call for complete radar coverage of Russia’s northern regions.
lukosYes, you really are a bit… Not with it, really. Bless.
Sorry but so far no one has even shown the link for Wiki Leaks where it says this. The Taliban having MANPADS isn’t something that would need to be hidden or leaked.
lukosCould someone FAE these guys really soon?
lukosYou do realise that anyone can edit any kind of information on Wikipedia, and that it is not the same as Wikileaks, right? Wikipedia generally is trash because of that very reason, which is why anyone in the right mind will provide another reliable source(s). The word Anonymous is something anyone doesn’t want to read/hear when one is looking for facts, also.
And who controls editing on Wiki Leaks? Wiki Leaks is just Wikipedia for the more anxious classes. Better to have lots of people able to constantly review the validity of information.
lukosI think the Iraqi military is about to start arming Kurds from what I heard. When it comes to an air force, the question is one of training though. I found learning to fly a Ka-50 on a PC simulator hard enough.
lukosI agree with the people that voted for the F-23. Im still grumpy that the AF didnt chose it. It was admittedly faster and stealther. They say it didnt dog fight as well as the F-22, but if you stealthy enough to get in firing range without being seen, kiss the other guy goodby, and there is no need to dogfight.
I know. The whole point in having a stealth fighter is not to dogfight. As it is, they’ve chosen the stealth aircraft that could dogfight better and then not bothered upgrading its missiles and avionics so that it could be truly competent in that area.
lukosAs of today, there is no ISIS Air Force.
That could be another issue if the problem is left.
lukosI used the source many months ago for my own professional purposes and added the resulting data to my files. I simply did not take the time to spoon-feed you with a direct link to the relevant document(s), but gave an indication of where the data could be found.
As I said. You didn’t use a source.
The last time I looked, Wikileaks contained a large collection of official US documents, at classification levels up to ‘Secret’, and the person who leaked these is currently in jail. Hardly the equivalent of Wikipedia.
Enough of this – I need to update the briefing I must give tomorrow (but doubt whether anyone will ask me to “link a source”).
The problem is it all comes from anonymous sources, like Wikipedia. Some of it is good (e.g. most science articles on Wikipedia are good) and some of it is trash. In this particular case I can’t see why the Taliban having a few MANPADS would require the cloak and shades treatment, can you? After all the US sold them some in the 1980s. I’m surprised at them still strafing in the presence of MANPADS, since it’s about the last thing you’d want to do, unless you were suicidal.
lukosI am much amused. While you were happy in a recent posting in another thread to cite Wikipedia as one of your sources, the sources I use are apparently not good enough for you.
Enough said – I have a briefing to give tomorrow, and after a bit of last-minute shopping will be able to head for home and forget about missiles and missile-defence for a few days. In the meantime, feel free to prove the Queen to be a reptilian. There are some of the Jacobite persuasion who might even agree with you.
You didn’t even link a source. So to say you ‘used a source’ is false in itself. Much like Wikipedia, Wiki Leaks is full of random, anonymous donations of information. Reptilian thing – only used as a random analogy to your definition of proof.
lukosWell, it was either that, let them perform or sell them a couple of Mistral Class Carriers despite Russia’s Human Rights Violations naughtiness and their other shenanigans in the Crimea.
Human Rights violations? Please!? Nobody was even killed, injured or captured in Crimea. Don’t make the thread political, especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about.
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