I just think it takes out of focus what we are trying to do for Andy.

I feel it’s all important what has been merged already within this thread, but has become unwieldy.

It needs to be split back into 3 separate threads (suggestion);

The Andy Saunders banning thread

The I’ve leapt! Lemmings thread

The I’ve been pushed thread !

Finally, something I agree with Bruce on:

If you honestly believe that your boycotting of Key magazines will make any difference at all, then feel free. Ultimately, it will be your loss, not theirs.

I will still look forwards to picking up my Flypast and Aeroplane Monthly each month, sitting in the garden for a couple of hours, (surrounded by bloody Hornets) flipping through the pages as I’ve always done.
However, when I have visitors peering over the wall with their cameras, I will slide my Flypast inside my Aeroplane monthly and pretend it’s a dirty magazine!

Come on Adrian (Cox) have a day of clemency, bring back Andy Saunders and I’ll hide the Aeroplane Monthly inside the Flypast!.

Beginning of the end

It won’t be long now

The original, original thread was pulled.

Then this original thread was taken from Historic and put onto GD.

Then this original thread was merged (watered down) and renamed.

It won’t be long now

Bones of contention………forumites/moderators/key house; delete as applicable.

Baz

Hi

To keep every on an even keel and transparent, Andy sent me the following:

“Yes it is “only” a forum. That much is true. In the grand scheme of things; what does it matter?
However, a lot of people have got angry about this because of an injustice. The British have pretty much a zero-tolerance of injustice, and I think that is what is firing up so many people here as much as any personal support, per se, for me.

However, I should add that the longer this goes on the greater the significance and importance it actually has for me personally. As and when this all subsides, which it certainly will, and particularly if Key have just remained silent and let it run, where does that leave me?

Think about it. I pretty much make (or rather, scratch) a living in various aspects of historic aviation. Here we have a situation where people are asking questions, and for all the supporive messages there will be those – probably many – who are saying: “Hmmmm…..no smoke without fire!” Put that together with the not unreasonable perception that a lifetime ban must be for something pretty darned serious and that is not helping my position, here. Maybe that is Key’s intention?

The speculation is there aleady, anyway, and it is being fed and added to and that fire is being fuelled by the hour, it seems. We have speculation a-plenty. It was e-bay. It was the Farley thread. It was none of them. It was both of them….it was something else that nobody can talk about.

For the time being, I have stopped trading on e-bay because I was starting to get messages via that site from those who had been alerted to all this. Incredibly, I was being asked questions (five thus far!) about items I was selling. Were they “dodgy” or something? Is there some kind of problem? Well, no, there certainly isn’t – but I have taken the decision to suspend trading there for the time being.

Some will see the irony there, no doubt, given my “campaigns” against the rogue traders there. So, already a real and tangible impact on me personally and financially. Add to that the decalred refusal of FlyPast to review any of my books (make of that what you will!) and you will appreciate that whatever this problem is it now impacts commercially on Grub Street Publishing and my other and rather more illustrious co-authors.

In my view, that stance is wholly unprofessional and based upon personal issues that someone at Key has with me. Sadly, this issue has now become public by dint of Key’s actions on this thread. All in all, this is a situation that is giving rise to some considerable concern to me persononally.

If Key should lock or remove these threads, or block any further discussion, then that does not make the problem go away for me. Consequently, that is not the answer to Key’s problem here. They need to make the problem go away by appropriate and fair actions, and quickly, or appreciate that alternative remedies – already under active evaluation – will have to be implemented.

Meanwhile, I place my faith in Adrian Cox of Key publishing to resolve the situation amicably and satisfactorily.” (Andy Saunders)

Baz

For the record, account name “tangmere” was banned permanently in September 2007 and this still stands. It has never been lifted.

He then started posting as “tangmere1940”, which was for whatever reason allowed, and it was whilst under this ID that he received his 2nd ban.

So I would say the story you got is somewhat confused spitfireman? I would urge you to check the facts first 😡

Sorry I couldn’t answer you, I’ve been out since 0800 raising money for RAFA with my Hurricane, just got home and put it all to bed.

When I posted late last night, it was put together whilst I was tired and knowing that I was to be up early in the morning.
I tried to keep it as simple as possible so as not to make any mistakes.

In Andy’s defence, he tried to correct that fact in an email just after eight this morning which I have only just picked up.

Andy said
“The only thing I would add is that my ban WAS originally in place and I could not gain access. That needs clarifying. It was only much later that I could get back on. Although, and as Tangmere1940, it is the case that everybody – mods included – knew exactly who I was and my name was often banded about. I never “hid” who I was as I thought that my presence there was well known and wholly legit. Often signed off as Andy or sometimes Andy Saunders. If I thought I was there “illegally” or under false pretences then I would have better hidden my identity………….”

“………..others have now taken the view that Key knew I was back on – even if I should not have been – but turned a blind eye knowing that my further removal would cause a kerfuffle. However, the recent threads (Farley/e-bay) gave them a reason/excuse to hide behind when they switched me back off again.

Just to clarify; my ban in 2007 was tied in somehow to the thread about the recovery of the Hurricane pilot at Gravesend – all discussion about which was stopped/banned/locked and I was booted off. I think the thread must have been too uncomfortable for someone at the MOD and Key were “leaned upon”. Either way, I broke no rules and had the 100% support of the pilot’s family – who also joined the debate arguing my case. I am still in touch with them and they remain puzzled and upset by all that happened then – including my forum ban.”

A later email I will post for the record:

“First, it is not entirely correct (although nearly so) when you
said/inferred that the original ban was never enforced. It was. The
reason for that ban was never explained. The “reason” now being offered
up is that the original ban was, in effect, still in place. That may
well have been the case. I would not dispute that. However, here is the
rub.

Some months (I think?) after the ban I went back onto the forum to read
the various posts. Whilst there I checked, out of curiosity, to see if
my name had been deleted from the user list. It appeared not to have
been – because there was “Tangmere1940”. When I tried to access it I
could not at first log on because I had forgotten my password. When I
clicked “Remind me of password” it was duly sent and I was back on.
Simple as that. Now, from other sources (Blue Robin alludes to this) I
gather that Tangmere1940 was my very very old user name that I had
registered with many moons ago, made a couple of posts….then
vanished. I got back onto the forum again when a debate blew up over
the Douglas Bader thread and, evidently, I registered then as Tangmere.
I can no longer recall the circumstances of that registration, but I
had either forgotten my previous registration and user name and started
again as simply Tangmere. Meanwhile, Tanmere1940 was simply dormant in
the background. In effect, I had un wittingly broken forum rules by
having two user names…..but I only ever used the Tangmere tag from
then on until banned. So, the sequence of events is that I was banned
as Tangmere and that still stood/stands. When I got back on I did so as
Tangmere1940 in the genuine belief that this, in fact, had been the tag
I had been banned under. All a bit convoluted, but I hope with your
lawyers had on you can make some sense of that?

In effect, I did have two user names – but unwittingly so. I accept
that having the two user i/d’s contravened the forum rules but all the
time I used Tangmere I had no idea that Tangmere1940 was dormant in the
background. Had I done so, I would have certainly acted to delete the
old one. In effect, again, I accept that I committed an “absolute
offence” by having (apparently) two current user i/d’s. It would appear
that this allowed me the route to re-access the forum after the ban,
but I did so openly and in the genuine belief that I was simply being
allowed back n as my old self. I never hid who I was. In mitigation, I
would add that I do not believe I did in any way shape or form ever
break any forum rules the first time around and the real question
(never answered) is why was I unjustly banned the first time? That lies
at the crux of the re-imposed ban now. If we are led to believe that
the reason for the ban now is simply a re-introduction of a ban that
should have been in force anyway, then the question germain e to all
this is; why the first ban anyway? In the meantime, and in my defence
for any heinous crime that Key perceived I committed, I believe that I
have been an asset to the forum since the 2007 ban. However, that is
for forum members and Key Publishing to decide.

I am afraid that a couple of moderators seemed to have jumped to the
conclusion in that I “illegally” had two user i/d’s
and there, alone, is sufficient cause to now hang the culprit. That,
though, conveniently ovrlooks two points; (1) what the reason was for
the ban in the first place and was never explained. Of itself, that is
the underlying reason (seemingly) for my ban now, and, (2) in the
interim two years I have been an asset (I hope) to the forum and its
users – certainly putting more in for the benefit of others than I got
out!”

As Kev35 says

No-one can be expected to believe that key didn’t realise that Tangmere and Tangmere 1940, were one and the same. Tangmere 1940’s posting history over the last two years have borne many mentions of who he is.

Bruce

The ‘explanation’ posted by Spitfireman is so full of holes it can be given little credence as it stands, for reasons explained by two other moderators.

I hope this tidies it up a bit.

Peter

James. it will be sad to lose you but there has been nothing released yet? I agree with Bruce on Spitfiremans post…

I guess my a*se is now in the sling.

as I said in that post, the common sense approach is to reinstate Andy and let us get on with our lives.

Baz

Andy has been informed by Key Publishing as to why he has been banned.

It basically has nothing to do with any recent threads at all.

It was mentioned in one post that this was Andy’s second permanent banning, actually, somebody in Key realised Andy was posting after the original ban (summer 2007) and they had never switch him off(!)

Andy in his email states:

“Some while after that ban, and when accessing the forum to read the various new posts there I checked on the user lists to find if I was deleted. Surprisingly, I found that my name was still extant and I attempted to access the site to post. Finding that access was allowed I not unreasonably concluded that my ban had, after all, been lifted and re-started my “membership”of the forum community. “

Andy has been posting ever since, unhindered, helping people ever since.

When Andy was originally banned in 2007 he was not given any reason and believed he had broken no rules in the code of conduct that governed this forum.

As he had not been told why he was banned (originally), when he found he could post, he continued, believing the ban was abolished.

It appears “the ban was re-imposed when it was noticed that he was back on the forum but should not have been.”

There we have it.

An oversight.

Andy Saunders has proved beyond doubt to be forums expert historian, always willing to help everybody and anybody, anytime. His last two years (whilst banned) have shown us how good and humoured his threads and posts are.

Over 10,000 hits with these last threads alone!

Can we now have some common sense here and put him back on the forum where he belongs.

cheers
Baz

Andy Saunders

I have the answers to this long running thread

Please bear with me whilst I put it together, I just got off the phone to A.S. and will post shortly.

Baz

And seeing my Dad,used to living in a bungalow,coming down a flight of stairs just like a toddler would,one step at a time.

Nothing wrong with that!

It’s called ‘Bungalitas’

I’ve got it!!!

put me in a house with stairs, I’m totally b*gg*r*d.

baz

are we there yet ?

are we there yet ?:diablo:

sorry – I have two kids, it happens every day !!!

😀