What is the collective noun for a group of pedants, anyway? :diablo:

I feel I must point out that I cannot provide a definitive answer. Painstaking research into the etymology of the word in question shows that there is no collective noun for such a group. However, if such a word is found, and can be verified as being in common usage by the Oxford English Dictionary, I shall certainly adopt it into my own vocabulary.

Yes, a specific claim was made, ‘In the NHS the number of administrators and managers has increased severalfold over the past 10 to 15 years.’

When asked by the Penguin, ‘I would be interested to see where you are getting your examples from.’ I quoted the source, exactly as requested. I also threw in example figures, which I wasn’t asked for, from the last 10 years. Anyone who disagreed with ‘severalfold’ could quite easily have checked the 15 year period. The figures support my claim perfectly, and I quoted them when specifically asked by Grey Area. If you follow the chronology you will note that I’ve backed up my arguments when asked to do so and not before.

If I were being really pedantic I’d point out that 1995 was 15 years ago, exactly the period I was discussing, but you’re probably well aware of that.

Couldn’t resist a bit more nitpicking:

several(a): (used with count nouns) of an indefinite number more than 2 or 3 but not many.:diablo:

In 1995 there were 20842 managers, increasing at a rate of 7.4%. Professional and support staff were only increasing at 3.4% and 3.3% respectively.

In 2009 there were 44661 managers.

OK, two and a bit fold then. Is that several?:confused:

So which part of the NHS do you work in then Stuart? It certainly doesn’t resemble any part I have worked in so I would be interested to see where you are getting your examples from.

As to the number of administrators increasing sevenfold – can you produce the figures as that doesn’t fit with the data that is coming out of the NHS. I used to quote around 7% of the budget was spent on management but apparently that has come down and now it is hovering around 5%. There have been increases in line with increased services which is what you would expect. Even if you cut the lot (which is impossible) you won’t save much money there. For comparison generally large private sector businesses run at around 15% management costs.

As to managers not speaking to front line staff- it may surprise you to find out that as part of the management element of my role (though I am not classed as a manager) not only have I been talking to frontline staff today but I have also been talking to *GASP* patients and potential patients to find out what services they need. And this goes on all the time.

Perhaps a little less reliance on tabloid views of the NHS and more reliance on the actual facts might shed some interesting light on what actually goes on. You may then begin to understand why the NHS has been protected.

A few points first – I wrote Severalfold, not sevenfold – hopefully you don’t work in an area of the NHS where accuracy is an issue. I obtained the data from the NHS Information Service. I do not read the tabloids, nor are my opinions formed from unreliable sources. I understand perfectly well why the NHS should be protected, and made no comment which would account for your contrary opinion, unless you believe the disproportionate increase in managers is not an issue that needs to be tackled before cutting front line staff.

From 1999 to 2009, the percentage increases in staff levels were as follows:

Managers and Senior Managers, average annual increase of 6.3%
Professionaly Qualified Staff, average annual increase of 3%
Total Infrastructure Staff, average annual increase of 3.3%

The number of managers appears to be increasing at twice the rate of all other posts, so no, this isn’t in line with what I would expect.

You will also note that my comments about Managers and Administrators refers to all public service organisations. Having had years of experience in the public services, albeit in a local authority, my comments stand.

In the NHS the number of administrators and managers has increased severalfold over the past 10 to 15 years. Any efficiency savings need to be focused there. However, in any public service organisation, administrators and managers tend to be better placed to articulate why thier jobs are ‘essential’. Management talks to management, not front line staff. They have to sit outside a closed door whilst thier futures are discussed. I think this applies to all public services. In private industry companies run in this manner would go bust very quickly. I hope the new government take heed of your hunch, Red Hunter.

Ah well, I can’t complain too much. The last government spent my money creating non-jobs. The new government says I have to pay for it now.

I look forward to seeing the Nappy Co-ordinators and PR Advisers and thier other non-job colleagues getting the boot from my local authority. As far as I’m concerned, that’s worth a few quid from me. When the quangos and all the excess managers are gone too I could just about swallow the hardship for people in real jobs.

Not strictly part of the budget perhaps, but it’s my money they spent on sh*te.

Looks like a pair of Sea Vixens in the last pic too. I played there from around 1968 onwards. I don’t recall any engines or props still fitted. I also remember that the aircraft had been lowered by digging holes and pushing the undercarriage in. I also saw a video of them burning, which I think was made by a chap who bought a couple of Lightnings and sold videos to help raise funds.