Don’t confuse material held by the RAF Museum or IWM with material that has Crwon Copyright. Some undoubtedly does fall under CC, but there is also a substantial body of work whose rights are NOT Crown Copyright, but the original Copyright holder’s rights have been assigned to the museum. In that case, copyright exists in the material 70 years from the death of the original holder.
I have a suspicion much of the Charles Brown collection falls under that.
The naming policy may have changed over the years Dave, but a coherent one seems to have been non existant by the late ’60s
Yep! The ‘naming’ of the VC10 confirms that!! It seems to have been the manufacturer gave a list of possibilities, then the Air Staff decided on which one they liked.
US Names were adopted for NATO commonality and multi-national projects needed names that were easily translatable.
There was a thread on this a while ago, and the general consensus was that TSR-2 would probably have been Eagle, P1154 Harrier and F-111K Merlin.
In similar vein, were any names kicked around for the HS681, seeing as serials were allocated? (XT261 to XT266). And were any serials allocated for P1154?
I’ve not seen serials for P1154, but the favoured name was ‘Harrier’
Shades of the aircraft names thread here.
Eagle dosen’t fit well at all, the Harrier and Kestrel were very strong VSTOL fighter relations and the Hawk a trainer, all were HS designs and could be argued as not being fast jets.
There really dosen’t seem to be much of a common naming policy at the time, with Lightning and Phantom (fighters) and Canberra, Buccaneer and Jaguar (Strike) all about at the planned service time.
If it was to follow suit at all it would have been named after a city of the UK (or ex Commonwealth), but which one would have suited?
If I had to guess I would have said that it would have picked up the wind theme again – like the Tornado did.
As I said in the Names thread, the policy changed!
Eagle actually may not have been the chosen name – this thread reveals a lot!!
“York” fitted in perfectly well with Avro’s house style though. Too good a name for the Air Ministry to ignore? The Air Ministry were writing the rules, so could bend them when the need arose.
Best wishes
Steve P
Tend to agree – natural companion to the Lancaster. The book has an interesting bit on the AM dialog when naming the Lincoln – among the names considered were ‘Stafford’ (in honour of Sir Stafford Cripps) and Sandringham – and a caveat that, when the next new aircraft requires a name, they “ought not to forget that England is not the only Country in these Islands”
First point – the rules changed from time to time and not everything followed the rules. The system changed in 1927, 1932, 1937 and 1939, so an aircraft introduced across those times may have had different rules applied.
So if we take Bombers, the 32 system split those into Day, Army Co-op, Night, General Purpose and Transport!!
Day – Animals (except Cats) – Hart, Hind etc
Army Co-OP – Classical Names – Lysander, Hector
Night – Inland towns of the British Empire OR towns associated with the RAF
GP – British Historical NAMES
Transport – General Towns and sea ports of the British Empire
In 1937, this was changed so that Light, Medium and Heavy Bombers became one class with nomenclature of ‘place names’ either inland towns or associated with british history’. For a short time, these had to begin with ‘B’
Then, in 1939 the policy became:
Bombers: Places either inland towns or associated with British history (this latter catches lots of now obscure places that would be well known to students of British history in the 30s)
General Purpose Torpedo/General Recce: (The old GP class now being a light bomber) – British Historical names
So, taking your examples (me in bold italics)
Transport.
Albemarle (Duke title) – originally a recce/day bomber, so presumably given the Names from historyLight Bomber.
Blenheim (castle/battle honour) Place associated with British HistoryMedium Bomber.
Wellesley (surname) – Originally built to a GP specification, so Name from British history
Hereford (Vicount title) – Place name
Wellington (Duke title) – Place name
Hampden (Vicount title) – PLace Name
Buckingham (Duke and Earl title) – Place NameTorpedo bomber.
Beaufort (Duke title) – GP Torpedo- name from British HistoryThe only system i see is the connection to the nobility and the idea of matching first letters to something.
Could be it!Greater Hampden? Could be it, especially with it’s nearness to HP.
I always liked to think someone was a fan of Scottish football!!
They did have a habit of picking obscure names, and taking only part of the name.
Hampden was, in the 1932 system, a Night Bomber so was an Inland town in the British Empire. (It’s in New Zealand)
Wellesley was originally designed as a ‘General Purpose’ aircraft, so got the name from a historical British figure.
Wellington is interesting – it fits the ‘inland towns’ classification for night bombers (One in Somerset for example) but was chosen/suggested by Vickers because Arthur Wellesley became the Duke of Wellington (Wellessly begat Wellington), but as it met the ‘towns criteria, it was accpeted – so it shows that a certain amount of subterfuge was used if approproiate!
Tomahawk is equally interesting – at the time the P-40 entered service Fighters were given names suggesting speed or aggressiveness, the US called them ‘Hawks’ but birds names were reserved for engines.
Re the C-47, if the specific memo from the AM still exists, it will be because it is alliterative and a US District/state
For such a rare Mark, XP915 met an undignified end being grounded and used for runway arrestor trials, being ploughed into foam and gravel!! Needless to say these trials didn’t do it a lot of good and it was scrapped at Bedford and not even that nose probe was saved!
Not quite it’s end – the fuselage was taken to Woodford for use in the AEW nimrod trials – there are/were photos in the Scrapyards thread showing it there. the forward fuselage was the taken to St Mawgan for fire rescue training.
Ooops. answered before reading Pagen’s message.
AMB notes it as a 3B – this is because it trialled the shorter wing for the 4B.
Now does anyone have a picture of it in RAE markings before the probe was added…? (I’m on a bit of a Comet kick at the moment!)
Thanks Dave, I’ll try and remember the correct fact now! 😀 That was from Names with Wings?
Yes indeed. By Gordon Wansbrough-White. UK Military naming systesm from 1878 to 1994 are detailed.
Re my earlier post, Just found out that Albemarle was an area, similar to say Wessex.
The Albemarle was named after the British Historical figure, as the intended use was General Recce.
I had always assumed that the Whitley was named after the area in Coventry where one of the AWA airfields was? Maybe one for RP Smith to answer.
That’s right, near Whitley Abbey
Found the relevant stuff.
In 1939, the policy for Transport aircraft was ‘Counties or Districts of the British Empire’ – however, an later paragraph of the AM memo stated:
“In the case of American aircraft….the basic rules should be followed as closely as possible…names with an American or Canadian flavour will be bvery appropriate. For instance. American-built transports should not neccessarily be named after a county or district of the British Empire, but would preferably be named after a district or State of the United States of America”
You can’t compare what names were applied pre-war with those applied post war, or even during the war (and the Admiralty named Naval aircraft) – the policy changed several times.
I can’t find Names with Wings, but when I do I’ll look up what was in force when Dakota was chosen
I was just reading through a list of WWII RAF aircraft and seem to have encountered some of the inconsistencies. bear in mind, that this is simply a list and I have not researched it further.
Beechcraft Model 18 Expeditor
Martin B-26 Marauder
Martin PBM Mariner
North American B-25 Mitchell
Douglas C-54 SkymasterFlying boat named after an animal?
Grumman G-21 Goose
Fighters named after animals?
Bell P-39 Airacobra
Brewster F2A Buffalo
Curtiss P-40 Warhawk Tomahawk / Kittyhawk
North American Aviation P-51 Mustang
There are several systems, and the policy changed changed quite often. At the start of the War, US aircraft were given UK names (So Martlet, Gannet, tarpon were original names for Wildcat, Hellcat and Avenger).
To avoid confusion, the US names were adopted later in the War.
The name applied was usually consistent with the policy – but there were exceptions. fritress is an obvious example, Liberator another (Suggested by Consilidated).
There was even an Air Ministry document that, at the time the US build up in the UK started, specified the UK name and the US equivalent.
There was a book a few years ago (Names with Wings) that went into some detail on the various naming structures. I’ll dig ot out later.