Yes, facts are worthless, they can be used to prove anything….

LOL 😉

Anyway, let’s not get too serious about this … but it does rather look as though we’re stuck – unless of course someone wants to try to figure out if the P-47 was better at turning (right) than the Fw?

I’ve suffered under the impression the Jug was a big clumsy thing that relied on power and speed. Am I well wrong?

Don

Facts

… quite a lot of the discussions on this and other fora are based on assumptions and hearsay rather than facts …

Well said Christer, and of course facts are exactly what I am fishing for on this thread. And this forum can do very well in that regard, particularly with respect to British aircraft and personnel. There is definitely a tendency to more conjecture outside of those realms, but to my mind that is acceptable.

I open by asking for evidence of hearsay (Matte’s reported recollections of discussions with his fellow flyers). What we appear to have found is …
– references to orginal documents noting the Fw 190’s tendency to suddenly depart from a turn under certain circumstances;
– excellent descriptions, by Galdri and you, of torque effects during turns;
– recognition (of the obvious) that of necessity aircraft design is an exercise in compomise.

To my mind those three things point to the possibility that, in certain circumstances, another aircraft could have (albeit perhaps only fleeting) advantage over the Fw 190.

Whether or not the P-47 would have advantage over the Fw 190 has not been proved.

Maybe it’s just how it was and not a great big mystery

Thanks Baz, it’s beginning to look like a simple design fact – the Fw 190 couldn’t pull as tight a turn as some other aircraft (notably the 109 and Spitfire). They all have their plusses and minuses.

I suppose if we also allow for the trim factors that if overridden would cause the aircraft to dpeart into a stall, and the rotational torque factors Galdri describes so well above, it may simply be that the later model P-47 with it’s taller rudder and immense power and prop combination, could out-turn the Fw to the right.

Of course the Fw pilots preferred the classic fighter pilot dive and pass. See here also.

Thanks, D

Hang on a minute – they’re the same!

Both the BMW 801 and the Jumo 213 are right-hand tractors and if I’m not wrong, the Pratt&Whitney R-2800 is also a right-hand tractor.

Damn. Galdri, they both turn the same way!

The original quote from Don Caldwell’s book

I trust Don (Caldwell) won’t object to me quoting briefly from his book. The allegation I refer to above is on p.330 of the second volume of the JG-26 War Diaries, date 20 August 1944.

Don draws from (but doesn’t directly quote for this specific point) recollections of Lt. Joe Matte, a flight leader in the 362nd Fighter Group’s 378th Squadron, flying P-47s. Don’s book says as follows …

“He [Matte] recalls that combat tactics were a frequent topic of conversation among his squadron mates. … From the perspective of the P-47 pilot, the flight characteristics of the Bf109s (always called ME 109s) and Fw 190s were similar, but the Fw 190 had a fatal inability to make sharp right turns. The objective of the P-47 pilot dogfighting with a Fw 190 was thus to make the German fighter turn right – a tactic that Matte used with success in his next encounter with Focke Wulfs, which did not come until November.”

So what we have is the recollections of a P-47 pilot, based in the first instance on hearsay (conversations with his mates). I’m sceptical, but as I say, wonder if there’s anything technical about a single-engined propeller plane that does predispose it to turning more easily (or perhaps more rapidly) one way rather than the other.