Air Ministry, thank you very much for the two great photos. You’ve solved my problem.
The turret is the key. I should have checked & checked again. But in fact, my Avro drawing D.4395, “GA of fuselage”, is for the Glenn-Martin turret, but does not say so. I had some misgivings about the short distance shown between the cockpit & the turret location, but didn’t follow them up. I should also have taken account of the relatively high drawing number, 4395. My apologies to all for this bad error on my part.
I should have been looking instead at D.1629, “GA of fuselage”, last amended 14-9-37. Although that is an uncomfortably early date, it is stated as valid for both Manchester & Lancaster I & II.
A quick comparison between D.4395 and D.1629 shows all the frames in the same locations which is a relief.
The location of the Glenn-Martin turret between frames 19 to 22 is centred on the rear escape hatch location between frames 20 & 21 . The length front to rear of the rear hatch is 18 3/8″ which is just about 0.5″ shorter than the front hatch.
The fault was my laziness. D.1629 is in a different less used database to D.4395 in my system.
One interesting thought to leave you with, either the addition of a different aircraft, i.e. the Lancaster I & II added to a drawing validity list for the Manchester, does not count as an amendment and is not recorded or the date 14-9-37 is a very early one to have a detailed drawing of the Lancaster. Could this change some myths about the genesis of the Lanc?
Mike
I must assume from all the above that the GA of the fuselage, D.4395, was issued, without amendments in 1945, not 1943.
Also from all the above whether or not the photo at the start of this thread shows two or just one escape hatch is irrelevant. I accept that the aircraft is PA474. To reach the state shown in the photo, the mid-upper turret had first to be removed and then re-placed. Also a substantial test rig on the fuselage top had been installed and later removed. With all these alterations the fuselage top and the absence of a rear hatch cannot represent a production aircraft.
Let me review my argument from Avro design documentation.
Slots cut out of frames for stringers 2a, 2, 1, 2, 2a
Stringers are symmetric about aircraft centre line, stringer 1 is on centre line.
Frame 19, D.3153 last amended 15-3-45, has these slots
Frame 18, D.3153 last amended 14-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 17, D.3152 last amended 15-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 16, D.3151 last amended 14-3-45, has these slots.
Frame 15, D.3150 last amended 20-5-42, has these slots.
Frame 14, D.3149 last amended 27-1-42, has these slots.
Frame 13, D.3148 last amended 31-5-44, has these slots
Frame 12, D.2973 last amended 10-5-45, Transport Joint, all stringers terminated, no slots
Frame 11, D.3146 last amended 9-11-45, has these slots
Frame 10, D.3145 last amended 29-4-45, DOES NOT have these slots
Frame 9, D.3144 last amended 15-7-45, DOES NOT have these slots
Frame 8, D.3143 last amended 15-4-49, has these slots except 2a
Frame 7, D.3142 last amended 17-5-44, has these slots except 2a
Frame 6, D.2973 last amended 10-5-45, Transport Joint, all stringers terminated, no slots
The GA of the fuselage, D.4395, shows auxiliary stringer 2a to be fitted only between frames 12 and 16
It also shows the front escape hatch (or as Avro calls it Emergency Exit) between frames 9 and 10
This hatch is mounted horizontally on stringer 3 both sides as well as the two frames.
The distance between the rear of frame 9 to front of frame 10, is 18 27/32″, this being the length front to back of the front hatch.
If a rear hatch were fitted, most likely it would be between frames 16 to 17 or 17 to 18.
But in both locations stringers 2, 1, 2 are shown fitted and continuous.
In addition the distances between both frames 16 to 17 and 17 to 18 are just 15 1/8″.
So either a rear hatch if fitted is some 3″, 20%, shorter than the front one or the position of one of the frames is adjusted..
I would imagine that both these two possibilities are most unlikely.
Moreover, the stringers 2, 1, 2 are shown to be continuous throughout frames 12 to 19.
They would have to have been shown as deleted in the location of the rear hatch.
So the conclusion from the above documentation is that all Lancasters built after the issued amendments had only one escape hatch along the top of the centre fuselage, not two as shown by PA474 in its current state.
My questions remain unfortunately. Did all Lancasters built before mid 1945 have two escape hatches?
Did all Lancasters built after mid 1945 have just one hatch?
I would need ro know that there is no contradictory photographic evidence to be sure. Can anyone help with this? That is with a photo of a production Lanc built before mid 1945 with just one escape hatch. And with a photo of a production Lanc built after mid 1945 showing two hatches.
How many Lancs were built after mid 1945 anyway?
Many, many thanks to all of you for your help.
My very best wishes to you all
Mike
I had better state my purpose exactly. I have Avro drawing D.4395, G.A. of fuselage, which has issue date of either 7-12-43 or 7-12-45. The last digit of the year could be either a 3 or a 5. This drawing shows only one escape hatch in the centre section. But PA474 indubitably now has two such hatches.
The series of drawings of the frames/formers between frame 10 (the back of the forward hatch) to frame 19 (forward edge of mid-upper turret) are fully consistent with this 4395 and those frames where a second rear hatch would be, frames 17, 18, 19, are last amended in 1945.
Detailed examination of the photo at the pixel level suggests strongly that no rear escape hatch existed in the aircraft at that time.
Can anyone confirm this?
So during which periods of time did production Lancs have only one escape hatch: 1944 onwards if issue of D.4395 was in 1943 or 1946 onwards if D.4395 was issued in 1945.
How come PA474 now has two escape hatches while when it was with 44 squadron and afterwards it had only one (according to my interpretation of the photo)?
Mike
Ok, it looks as though I am wrong. Internet says PA474 was issued to 617 squadron to replace aircraft lost in Chastise. So it was issued some time in late May or in June 1943. So PA474, the aircraft shown here was built probably in the first half of 1943.
Now, when were the Lincoln-like extended rudder trims installed? And wasn’t the aircraft used for trials with a vertical wing or similar stuck on its back and at that time lacked the nid-upper turret. Later, in the mists of mental fog I think a mid-upper turret was obtained from Argentina where they had stopped operating Lancs not long before.
So I’m getting near now to what I wanted; the removal of the trials vertical airfoil/wing and installation of the turret required a re-building of a major part of the top decking of the fuselage.
Someone, several years ago, complained in some forum or other of the shoddy mis-aligned riveting visible along the fuselage top from the astrodome. It was not shoddy work, but a major and successful re-working of the top fuselage between aft of the astrodome to the mid-upper turret location.
Oh, the joy of digging out old memories.
Mike
I bet they didn’t put the Bostik sealing in between the turret ring and the ring platform or did they?
If so I’ll eat my hat provided it is made of marzipan
Mike
Bless you and many thanks for the names.
Mike
Oh Lordy, I don’t know their names, Please, can you oblige?
And then, surely there are more than seven?
I can grow old and disappear quite soon but they can’t, mustn’t, shouldn’t.
Mike
These are the values for the Lancaster’s pilot seat There’s a good chance they are the same for the Spitfire.
They are given in Metric mm by Avro themselves. All de-magnetised,
Pilot seat
Thickness 6 mm
last amended 30-5-43
Pilot backrest
Thickness bottom half 6 mm
Thickness top half 9 mm
last amended 17-11-44
Seat Head Plate
Thickness 9 mm
last amended 23-2-42
Hope that helps
Mike
How many sets of factory drawings for different aircraft have been lost at least partially by fire, tempest & flood?
Too many to be simple chance in my limited experience.
Perhaps the high cost of micro-filming and the great bulk of a full set of drawings explains part of it.
But I feel other factors were involved almost as though it was a deliberate decision to remove & forget the past.
Does anyone agree?
The Whirlwind & the Welkin seem to be examples relevant to this thread.
Mike
Lovely photo, Peter. Can the fairlead itself be ripped off with damage that corresponds to Bobcat’s part?
I’ve re-written completely my last post. Too hasty by far. Sorry.
Mike
Yeah, I do want to change it
A rapid answer, I might want to change it later. Yeah, I do want to change it.
I jumped in far too quickly.
Bobcat, the photos show the rear face of the bulkhead. The Avro drawing shows the front face. In Peter’s photo, the upper one, you can see rather bright, possibly replacement, rivets in this location shown just above the area marked in yellow by Bobcat. 4 of these are for the .”bearing housing support bracket for rear bomb door jack anchorage”, drawing No. D.1900, last amended 26th Nov 1943. The bottom 4 rivet holes of this group.
Avro drawing 2/D.3273 is described as “fairlead for bomb door piping on front face of bulkhead”, not a stiffener. This fairlead, on the other side of the bulkhead, is not the stiffener shown in the photos. The part consists of a support bracket (said previously to be the stiffener) and the fairlead itself. The real part found by Bobcat could still be this depending on the chewed length and damage as the fairlead itself was ripped off.
Now the stiffener shown in the photos on the rear side of the bulkhead. the only reference I can find that might match it is shown below in the rounded brown box.
That says “2 holes drill Morse N (.257) to suit stiffener ref D.2048”. An arrow is shown extending to 2 hole locations. A brown line has been added in parallel to indicate the arrow. There are two problems: only 2 holes, I don’t have a copy of D.2048. Without a copy of D.2048 I cannot say whether or not this is Bobcat’s part.
That 2 holes only are required seems rather strange unless the part uses holes drilled for other purposes.
One of the issues here is that the Avro drawing of the bulkhead has a last amended date of 6th January 1945. It is possible that the photos show the design of this area at an earlier date. 20 amended drawings of this bulkhead were issued between 29th Sept 1941 and 1945
Best wishes
Mike
With luck we’ve got it this time.
Peter’s photo is of the bottom portion of former 22 which is the rear bomb bay bulkhead.
Here is a section of the Avro drawing for this bulkhead D.3273. The stiffener is indicated with the broad arrow.
The thin arrow indicates the drawing number for the stiffener itself 2/D.3273

Here is the Avro drawing 2/D.3273 for the stiffener with its dimensions. Particularly, the length is 9.5 inches.

If the chewed end of your, Bobcat’s, piece could make it up to 9.5 inches, then we’ve got it.
All the best
Mike
Naturally, I would like to see much more of the historical technical engineering & production on the forum, but I must admit I have enjoyed this thread with its banter. In addition, some serious technical points have been raised. So a good thread!
Mike
Hennie, here is a section from Avro D.3272 showing the front lower bulkhead stiffeners.

Another part of Avro D.3272 gives the lengths, shorter 22.5″ long with 24 rivets each side flange and longer 26.5″ long with 26 rivets each side flange.
Your ‘last one’ seems much shorter than this. So, unfortunately, I don’t think I have identified it correctly. Sorry.
Mike
Hennie, your last one looks like one of the shorter stiffener angles on the front lower bulkhead of former E, at the back of the bomb aimer’s compartment. I’ve got the Avro drawing of it and I’ll count the number of rivets to confirm.

Mike