I think the Rafale fan boys are ignoring the entire aspect of energy advantage.
The AMRRAM already has a greater range than the MICA. A F-22 firing from 60k feet and at mach 1.8 could conceivably push the Amraams range to +50%
With this advantage even a emitting and non stealthy raptor would beat a Rafale hands down. The Rafale is a good multirole fighter but it is Not a air superiority fighter. It doesn’t have the size, RADAR size, or kinematics to match the Raptor. Once again even if you could see a Raptor you would be at a disadvantage. Jamming in hopes of a merge wont work because the passive sensors and the AESA are sensor fused.
All this talk about jamming and passive sensors is really irrelevant.

some things were posted here… man, it’s hard to believe…

jessmo,

I hope you do understand that pilots, while training, don’t really shoot at each other, right? The guy is in “training mode” and when he depresses the firing button, only his onboard system tells him he fired, but nothing really goes off, ok? It’s like on a video game. you play against your buddy, shoot at him, but there’s nothing real coming out of your computer… just a few pixels displayed on your screen, ok?

Now, when you do a “passsive shot”, that means that you don’t emit either. From there on, if you don’t emit anything and only on your own screen you have a displayed message that you fired, what would you expect the oposing aircraft to detect?

@ jackjack

about targeting trucks under trees, have you ever witnessed parasites on TV (image/sound) when a motorcycle passes in the street in front of your house? That happens when the firing system (spark plugs, etc) aren’t shielded, because of high voltage produced and that’s necessary to generate the spark. A normal car/motorcycle that is built to actual norms (and is shielded properly) produces no such visible interferences. The chinese or russian trucks from the 1960’s most certainly did not bother about that at the time.

As far as combat aircraft are concerned, the EM emissions are a vital asset to be maintained under control, so you can be certain everything inside is shielded from emitting unnecessarily just as from being disturbed by enemy emissions. They will most certainly be much more discreet on these matters.

@ jessmo:

you don’t need to jam if you detect no threat. So, if the other guys is just listening passively, your jamming will be in stand by mode and won’t emit anything – no detection there. You jam if there’s an emission against you, so either the other guy uses radar (and gives away his position to you) or its missile has gone active and will be immediately jammed by your defense systems and, as far as the missile is concerned, chances are you detected its launch anyway.

what you don’t seem to understand, or rather, don’t want to understand or admit, is that SPECTRA is a very advanced integrated system that is made especially to detect and defeat EM systems that may be used against the rafale. EM missiles like the AMRAAM are one of its targets and, while the USAF did not want to use the radar on the F-22 in order not to allow the french to record its signature, there’s little they can do about the AMRAAM whose signature is most certainly known by the french at this time. Add to that the historically very low kill ratio of A2A missiles (and against targets having no efficient ECM) and you get the picture: if you rely on EM missiles only, against an oponent using an operational advanced ECM suite, you may very well have to face your oponent from much closer than you’re willing to… and if he has some medium range IR missiles and you don’t, you may end up in big trouble pretty fast, stealth or not

The bottom line is that the rafale had a chance to prove both WVR superiority and BVR and it failed at both.

and distance…how would a rafale perform SEAD or trim the OSF TV zoom (which can be cued to the RWR–see peter collins article) with spectra then ?

that are sensible claims. that is a probable scenario if the F22 cant take advantage of its first shoot capability (if Amram are jammed). That being said the F22 has the initiative to keep fighting or leave the fight. Dont overlook the optical sensors also…something the F22 lacks.

Without radar emmissions to look for, an hostile cannot be ID for sure. The rafale can ID un unknozn plot at distance around 40Km thanks to the FSO and see if the aircraft is armed or not, from which country it belongs etc…In terms of Situational awarness it is much better and safer.

But you just said you would use jamming to get to the merge?
if you jam you get detected passively if you don’t jam you die?
The Raptors sensors are intergrated and the AMRAAM doesn’t even go active until the terminal stage. You should be more concerned about the Rafale dealing with other widely exported 5th generation faircraft t-50,f-35, and more.

So the bottomline continues to remain that someone from active Adla service has said what he has said, and not yet retracted his words. To me, the credibility of Mr. Grandclaudon’s statements increases since nobody worth their name has come out publicly to deny what the gent said.

USS.

This brings up another point. I think the gentlemean in question was carefully hand picked by the French for this. why didnt they get someone that has flown more types? Isnt it a conflict of interest when you pamper a guy and give him a lavish ride and treatment in you Rafale? I would be pressured to say somthign nice.

Versus a 4th generation fighter its effective. Against the Raptor it is dead weight. I thought you said before that it was in training mode and it was operating? Any way I would even go as far as saying that even if the Raptor was activly emmiting, or not stealthy in any way, it would still beat the Rafale and make spectra a non issue. Do you understand why I am saying this?

What are you thinking about ? I don’t understand your point.

@ Jessmo24 :

I wasn’t implied in the discussion until I corrected your “strange” arguments. Thus, I don’t know what you’re talking about, and I don’t understand your accusation.

There is no link between the “when…” and the “suddenly”. And yes, your arguments were strange, and I’ve done my best to tell you why. Think before writting, this may help a bit. As I already said before, I don’t care about this discussion, the problem is that your arguments about Spectra on or off, and its ability to detect (or not) incoming virtual missile is…:rolleyes:

And your wrong you trying to marginalize my argument based on your own bias

1. If the spectra WAS ON why didnt it detect the F-22 or the passive launch
Your claim that the missile was virtual is non starter. If the Rafale had achieved a passive lock and firing solution on the F-22 saying that the missile was virtual and a Passive IR detection cant be simulated would not be an excuse. Not to mention the never ending French chest thumping that would saturate the pages of this forum! where is the vaunted jamming? Why didnt it see the F-22 in IR.

2. If the spectra wasnt on then thats not the Raptor drivers problem, a kill is a kill. if your goign to take this route then why not give the typhoon leway when they have a valid excuse for some of the losses.

3. Just acknowledge the fact the the Raptor is superior in every respect, WVR,BVR, sensors, kenamatics, Radar, even as a strike aircraft.

Im goign to ssay this bold so I can be sure you under stand my argument.

SPECTRA IS IRRELEVANT WHEN FIGHTING A F-22 its doesnt matter what mode its in, its doesnt matter if its working or not the spectra doesnt matter.
because even if it COULD detect a F-22 passively there is a speed, altitude, and power disadvanage, in favor of the Raptor.

beautiful from the same link