Martin,

The IJsselmeer is mostly fresh water (the north there’s more salt as there is a sluice connection with the Waddenzee which is salt water). The water where the aircraft came down is very shallow. The wreck is recovered by the AF so only some scraps might be left. The general condition of the metal is rough to say the least because of the shallow depth of the water. Don’t waste your time on this one.
Cees

I agree,

Rumours yes, but if these aren’t investigated you never know if it’s true or not. Those buried Stirlings in Egypt would be a very worthwile project to find out. If nothing is found, then that’s the end of that rumour. A few years ago there was a newssnippet in flypast IIRC about Spitfires being dumped in Africa with acid poured over them. Also in Burma there was a project going on to find buried aircraft. They are out there, it’s a matter of finding out, however improbable the rumour might be.

Cheers

Cees

Come on, it’s not all doom and gloom. At least some aircraft have been restored such as the Mk I Spitifre, the Mk V, the Battle and now the Defiant gets some well needed TLC. Perhaps there are plans in the pipeline the general public doesn’t yet know about. The Liberators is now in the right place next to the B17 and the RAF Heavies. We enthusiasts are a strange bunch of people and not really the prime group of visitors they are aiming at, although the critisism is obviously true.:rolleyes:

Cheers

Cees

Phillip,

Don’t know about this discovery (but I am excited if it’s true) but it doesn’t surprise me one bit as there could be several still lurking in Norwegian waters. Perhpas Karl K could do his bit on this one if LW170 turns out to be elusive.
If the son knows more, why not ask him furhter?

Cheers

Cees

Sorry Andy,

I tried to be brief;)

I’m not important, I’m just part of the organisation. The organisation has proven itself by giving private indivuals a chance to get their teeth in anything they are interested in, and it gets paid back by the growing experience etc.

It’s not all rosy however. When I wanted to get into this kind of work my father warned me that I would get a lot of “gezeik” (translate that:cool:)
and I shouldn’t do it. He was right:rolleyes: and there were a lot of difficulties. In this field of work there are a lot of ego’s present (we all know don’t we) and you have to get used to that as well as in the beginning organisations such as ours were called treasurehunters, wreckhunters and sometimes bodysnatchers. When talking to the press we had to be very careful what to say, and usually we would only talk to a few journalist who had proven to be knowledgable and even then we would only give permission for an article if we could read the draft before publishing to have any irregularities or wrong information corrected. Joe Public believes what they read in the paper and one mistake will still be used against you years later. We are talking about a hobby, or are we. More like overworked unpaid fools who are doing the job the authorities should have done decades before.
Critisim from “real” archeologists? My foot!:rolleyes:

Does this sound familiar Andy?

Cheers

Cees

James,

I will give an idea what the general idea is over here in the Netherlands.

Well, all people I know who are active in this field (speaking from the Dutch side) have started out of an interest in aeroplanes (same as I have). When I got into contact with the Aircraft Recovery Group 1940-1945 Foundation (twenty years ago in june) I had this foolishly idea that we would be digging every weekend and enjoying our heads off. Boy, was I wrong.:o

Most people think that when they apply to volunteer for these organisations, and they are mostly gone a few weeks/months later. Those who remain are really bitten by the aviaton virus but have soon found out that there is more to the story, and not just digging up wrecks but that is the final stage of the whole process. The feeling that young men had given their lives to free our country became stronger and stronger and from that a real passion to find any missing aircrew and if possible to give them the proper burial they deserve.

When involved in this kind of work, you cannot be a pirate and go out having a dig and leave without doing your homework. It might work once or twince but then people have been warned and that’s it.

First of all you have to do things by the book. Establishing first which aircraft to investigate, then find out if any missing crewmembers are involved or UXB, if so we do the investigation try to contact any next of kin regardless of nationality, and then ask the local Mayor and ayone who has to know about it if they are willing to undertake such a recovery (they usually turn it down). In that case leverage is sought via the press and next of kin, which works in 100% of the cases so far/

If there are no missing crewmembers or UXB to be expected (simply doing one’s homework) we can tackle the project ourselves. Next thing to do is asking permission from the owner (usually a farmer, or nature organisation) to enter one’s land before even starting to find an impact point. If the owner has given permission you have to be as honest as can be, because nobody would be forced to give permission to enter his territory or even dig large holes into it.

After the site has been found, again the owner is asked if he/she is interested in a recovery, and also the reason why is fully explained. Any costs are born by our organisation and every measure will be taken to prevent any damage to the owners land, the environment etc. We do have the necessary licenses.

In recent years good contacts have been established between our group and the RNethAF and a good working form of cooperation has grown with mutal respect and understanding and we are aware that the RNethAF are representing the Dutch authorities and we fully conform to the rules and regulations stated by them.

Every investigation is made using our own forms where information, charts, photo’s, whatever may be needed, and kept in a file unique to the aircraftcrash (we have a database of some 1500 crashes, mostly on land, of which only one is still unknown (and we hope to rectify that one soon).In water it’s a different story as the IJsselmeer still holds hundreds of unknown wrecks, that may see the light of day in the years ahead.

Every knowledgde we have is self taught or learned from field experiece or looking in the local archives, or the various archieves abroad such as the national archieves at kew, where I have been several times.

All this work takes a lot of time, time that is not paid for but purely spare time. The museum generates funds which are fully fed into the organisation whatever it’s needs. We all work in our spare time (or take time off from regular work). I have found that when working with a large organisation, usually a small group is really doing the work with a large group around that provide a group of people who work on sundays when the museum is opened to the public.

This relatively small group together has a complete set of all qualifications needed to do this kind of work. Some are dedicated to archive investigation, others do field work, others spend years learning aircraft structures, organistion structures, you name it, it’s there.

Without this dedicated group of people it would not be possible to find out if a certain aircraft crash still contains human remains or deadly cargo. In the latter case the public safety is endangered and steps will be undertaken to make sure the UXB are renedered safe by EOD-specialists. In case of missing aircrew we contact next of kin and when such a recovery needs to take place every bit of information is already available to the official recovery team. Usually we are allowed to provide assistance but within the rules of the AF, which suits us fine.

The current situation could never have happened if our group or several others like us had not proved to be dedicated and “professional amateurs”:cool: But this has not come about by using degrees by studying at University or any other way, but purely by dedication, a profound sense of doing something about missing crewmembers as well as pursuing a hobby.
We have never been paid for any of this, on the contrary, it has cost us money, spare time ( a lot) or days off, but would we have wanted it any other way? No, not at all.
As mentioned earliers, during the recovery of lancaster DV286 of 300 Sqn, five missing crewmembers were found and given a fully deserved funeral at Breda cemetery. This recovery alone was give a lot of interest in Poland. Now they could be proud of their fellow countryment who died over sixty years ago, and the only survivor of the crash could finally pay his tribute to his comrades. That makes it all worthwhile

Some of us who have a liking to publish books have done so and our group has give out one publication with some crashrecoveries and the full story of the crew, but this is not the focal point of the work done.

I hope this will give you a bit of an idea what’s involved in this kind of work for those who have no first hand experience in aircraft recovery.

Cheers

Cees