GrahamSimons:diablo: When did the first Avro Ashton fly? :diablo:
Ashton Mk 1 – first flew September 1 1950. Pilot Jimmy Orell
GrahamSimonsGSimons…
I think you’re a bit too touchy on the subject! Nobody was dumping on the Comet..it seems mrtotty was just stating the sad facts. Every aviation-mad schoolboy knows the disasters slowed the program to the advantage of other makers.
All serious avaition buffs recognize the Comet for its groundbreaking role in civil aviation.
No need to throw un-needed nationalism into your comments…you mentioned Boeing but forgot SUD, Airbus, the Soviet jets, Embraer, Canadair, AVRO Canada, Convair, Douglas…the jetliner world is made up of more than just Boeing.
Every civil jet maker should tip their hat to de Havilland and the Ministry of Supply for going ahead with the project.It’s a pity that fate interviened as it did. It’s not always easy going first…but those of us who remember and care about such things will remember the huge role de Havilland played in the airliner field.
PS…no need to trash the Boeing..of the accidents you listed several were not the fault of the AC…(a bomb, being shot down by the USSR, flying into mountains…) But a couple…flying into a storm and failure to getto flying speed match early Comet crashes. The rules of aviation safety have little to do with nationalism.
Sure I’m touchy… but then, I remember a certain Channel Four TV programme of a few years back on the subject that was the biggest hatchet-job doing. I’ve also been to the Dulles Museum and seen the signage that accompanied the Dash 80 exibit – The world’s first jet airliner’. They even have ‘707’ painted on the tail of the damed thing!
I’m also sick and tired of everyone quoting the the Comet crashes whilst painting the Boeing aircraft design as being whiter than white. Sure… everyone learned – but at the cost of all the folks at Hatfield and elsewhere. Yes, Comets were lost to bombs…. they also flew into mountains. We lost one in Spain. But it all needs putting into context!
I’m in the business of recording history as accurately as possible – unless the Comet – and the folks at De Havilland – are defended in the correct manner, then those who now call the Douglas DC-3 the ‘Boeing DC-3’ – and the Boeing 717 that was really one of the last McD products will have changed future history to reflect nothing but corporate arrogance at claiming innacuracies brought about by things such as corporate publicity and take-overs!
And by the way, what’s wrong with a bit of pride in your countries achievements? – it beats the hell out of bland political correctness!
GrahamSimonsSadly, the Comet 1 had a habit of breaking up in flight.
A beautiful-looking and ground-breaking aircraft to be sure, but what a shame it developed such a poor record just as the B707 was coming on stream.
Just? JUST???? Methinks someone needs to learn their history and check the correct timeline!
The De Havilland Comet one first flew 27th July 1949 – The Boeing 367-80 – a type two stages removed from the very first Boeing 707 design – was not even given go-ahead by the Boeing Board until April 1952 and two years after representative had visited Hatfield to look over things. This go-ahead was just a few days before the Comet entered scheduled passenger service with BOAC on May 2nd 1952.
The so-called ‘Dash 80’ was only just wide enough to seat two+two – IF airliner seats had been fitted. It had a fuselage diameter of 132 inches.
The Dash 80 was rolled out of the factory on May 15, 1954. It then undertook a series of taxi trials, which resulted in the port landing gear collapsing on May 22 causing damage to the airframe. The maiden flight took place July 15,1954. A series of test flights followed during which the most significant – and dangerous – issue discovered was a marked propensity to “Dutch roll” – an alternating yawing and rolling motion. This problem was to remain throughout the types and it’s successors life and was only cured with the installation of yaw dampers. Other problems were found with the engines and brakes, the latter failing completely during landing on one occasion causing the aircraft to overshoot the runway and suffer damage.
From the 367-80 design – which was unwanted by the airlines as having a ‘too small cabin width’, the US Military ordered a larger 144-inch fuselage diameter version, designated the Boeing 717, known in military parlance as the KC-135 tanker. Even this was too small for the airlines, and it was not until Boeing agreed to Pan-Amercian request to widen the fuselage to 148 inches that the true 707 appeared.
True, the Comet I did suffer a series of catastrophic failures of the fuselage due to the then little-to unknown phenomenon of metal fatigue in 1954 caused by repeated pressurisation cycles. De Havilland investigated the matter thoroughly, completely re-designed the type from the ground up, which emerged as the De Havilland Comet 4. They also made their discoveries freely available to other manufacturers, including Boeing. John Cunningham was later to state that, according to representatives from American manufacturers such as Boeing and Douglas they “…admitted that if it hadn’t been for our problems, it would have happened to one of them”
The new Comet 4 first flew on 27 April 1958. The first flight of the first production 707-120 took place on December 20, 1957, and FAA certification followed on September 18, 1958.
BOAC’s Comet 4 G-APDC initiated the first transatlantic jet service and the first scheduled transatlantic passenger jet service in history, flying from London to New York with a stopover at Gander on 4 October 1958. Rival Pan Am’s inaugural 707 service began three weeks later.
Incidentally, like so many detractors of the Comet, – especially many Americans – you make mention of the Comet crashes, but fail to mention that the Boeing 707 had a far-from-perfect safety record, as this quick trawl through Wikipedia shows! These are just SOME of the noticeable accidents!
On October 19, 1959, A Boeing 707-227 crashed northeast of Arlington, Washington while on a test flight for Braniff International Airways. Four people were killed in the crash, and four survived.
On February 15, 1961, Sabena Flight 548 crashed while on approach to Brussels Airport, Belgium. A total of 73 people were killed, including the entire United States Figure Skating team.
On March 1, 1962, American Airlines Flight 1 crashed into Jamaica Bay after taking off from Idlewild Airport (now JFK Airport) while heading for Los Angeles International Airport. All 95 people on board died.
On May 22, 1962, a bomb destroyed Continental Airlines Flight 11, killing everyone on board.
On December 8, 1963, Pan Am Flight 214 crashed outside Elkton, Maryland during a severe electrical storm, with a loss of all 81 passengers and crew. The Boeing 707-121 was on the final leg of a San Juan — Baltimore — Philadelphia flight.
On January 24, 1966, an Air India 707-437 flying Flight 101 crashed into Glacier des Bossons on the SW face of Mont Blanc in the French Alps. All 106 passengers and 11 crew were killed.
On March 6, 1966, BOAC Flight 911 broke up in flight due to severe turbulence and crashed into Mount Fuji.
On July 11, 1973 Varig Flight 820 on scheduled airline service from Galeão Airport, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil to Orly Airport, Paris, France made an emergency landing in a field in the Orly community due to smoke in the cabin. The fire, smoke and crash resulted in 123 deaths, with 11 survivors (10 crew, one passenger).
On November 3, 1973, Pan Am Flight 160, a 707 crashed on approach to Boston-Logan. Smoke in the cockpit caused the pilots to lose control. Three people were killed in the hull-loss accident.
On April 22, 1974, Pan Am Flight 812, a 707-321B crashed into a mountain while preparing for landing after a 4 hour 20 minutes flight from Hong Kong to Denpasar, Bali, Indonesia. All 107 people on board were killed.
On April 20, 1978, Korean Air Lines Flight 902 was targeted and shot by Sukhoi Su-15 interceptors after unintentionally penetrating Soviet airspace and made an emergency landing on a frozen lake near Murmansk, USSR. Two passengers were killed due to rapid decompression of the fuselage.
On October 13, 1983, a Bolivian 707 cargo jet crashed in Santa Cruz, Bolivia killing 91 (88 were killed on the ground when it crashed into a practice football game).
On January 3, 1987, Varig Flight 797 crashed when making a return to Abidjan, Côte d’Ivoire after one of its engines failed. One person survived.
On November 29, 1987, Korean Air Flight 858 exploded over the Andaman Sea, in the Indian Ocean in a terrorist attack with a bomb placed by North Korean agents. All 115 people on board died.
On February 8, 1989, Independent Air Flight 1851, a Boeing 707, crashed into a hill on approach to Santa Maria, Azores. All 144 people on board were killed.
On January 25, 1990, Avianca Flight 52 crashed after running out of fuel in Long Island, New York. The 707 was delayed numerous times because of a blizzard at New York. A total of 73 people died.
On October 23, 1996, a 707 belonging to the Argentinian Air Force crashed on take off roll after failing to achieve takeoff speed (V2) at Buenos Aires International Airport (EZE).
So stop rubbishing the Comet – and accept it for what it was – the world’s first jet airliner!
And yes, I know about the Nene Viking – Vickers designed it with piston power, unlike the Comet which was always planned as a jet!
GrahamSimonsFriday 24th July – Sortie Cancelled
Friday, July 24, 2009 – VTTSWe’re very sorry to have to announce the XH558 won’t be flying to Cottesmore and Lowestoft today.
Does that make it 7 to 10?….. pretty poor reliability rate!
GrahamSimonsHas it been taken over by Ryanair?:D
You mean you arrive at Kings Lynn to get to Cosford?
GrahamSimonsCertainly Hawker and Fairey designs of the 20s and 30s had variable incidence tailplanes for trim, adjusted by screw-jack on one spar, controlled from the cockpit in flight – manual power, I presume. Fairy had ‘variable camber wings’, on their biplanes too.
The Westland Lysander tailplane went through various design iterations – the final version had a variable incidence tailplane, required to be at different angles for take off and landing, and potentially fatal in a go-round the elevator control not having enough authority to overcome the trim angle. Harald Penrose was not happy to sign the design off, but with the war coming, it was. (How much the of Lysander’s design was Petter’s is disputable.)
HTH
The DH89 Rapide also had a variable incidence tailplane for trim… and Miles aircraft were playing around with an all-flying tailplane way before the Merry Cans claimed it as ‘theirs’ with the Bell X-1
GrahamSimonsHe’s “spending a year dead for tax reasons” the ultimate in creative accounting.
Nah… he’s sitting out back at Gracelands splitting a double cheesburger with Elvis!
GrahamSimonsComments about A O-H….. As his publisher…. I know he did… I’m not sure I like our publishing project referred to by the kilo tho!
GrahamSimonsand what colour do you paint the warbird you own?
GrahamSimonsLooks somewhat like Jack Northrop – and I know he lectured in London more than once.
GrahamSimonsOne shot has always puzzled me. Towards the end when they are waiting for the aircraft to return, all the groundcrew are looking one way and the bombers appear from behind them! I know American navigation is allegedly not very good but I can’t imagine it’s 180 degrees out.
You better ask the Director Michael Caton-Jones… the two versions of the script I still have give no clue…. it’s about on a par with the ‘stars’ flying a B-17 with the control-locks clearly in place!
GrahamSimons*grins*… we did… it’s called ‘Memphis Belle – dispelling the Myths!’
(Sorry… could not resist that! – I’ll get me coat!)
GrahamSimonsI think we can wait for the official version from TFC please….
Bruce
I’m keeping my mouth shut on this one, and I suggest others do the same.
GrahamSimonsI stand to be corrected, but I think he owned Fairey Flycatcher Replica, G-BEYB
GrahamSimonsErrmm…..
Not sure about it being an SAA aircraft – I thought their tail scheme was orange fin, blue flash outlined in white with a blue springbok outlined in white towards the top centre – BUT… those flickr pics appear pretty conclusive!
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