Just put my ashes on the grass on an airfield 😀

Originally posted by pluto77189
No, that’s what you percieve. Nobody thinks there’s any one solution. However, without education, they’re bound to stagnate, and fall into poverty, and suffering. Education will give the ABILITY to save themselves,a nd better their own lives. With education, they stand a chance.

What caused the Germans to fight so fiercly? Elitisim. They were made to believe they were superior to other people, and were destined to control the world. Just like the Imperial Japanese, they were BETTER than the people they fought.

How did this happen? After WWI, the reparations caused much suffering in Germany, and impoverished, unhappy people, not totally in control of their own life, will seek a scapegoat. Germany blamed the Jews, and the rest of the world, becasue of the treaty of versailles’s reparations. The german people were brainwashed into believing their own superiority. From there,it’s not hard to see why they fought–they were BETTER than their enemies.

Militant islamists believe their culture is superior to western culture. So much so, they believe that western culture is an affront to god, and god wills it’s destruction. While they were educated, the 9-11 terrorists STILL believed what they were doing was good.
Look what the Nazis tried. Is there any doubt that the terrorists are any LESS determined?

Wrong on both points. The fascist superiority idea did not find a big following. Most germans were strongly christian during this time. Many did not konw what was happening to the Jews.
They were also not brainwashed. They had seen demonstration been cut down with force by french troops. They had seen their economy collapse because of the reperations. Their live had become much worse then during the time under the imperator. They wanted a strong leader again and Hitler was offering to fullfill this wish. In the first years of his dictatoship life for the average German imrpoved remarkably. So he fullfilled his first promise. The Versaille treaty was seen as unjust by the majority of the germans so Hitler was able to get support for a revision. With the experience from the post WW1 years every german “knew”, that there would be no peacefull solution. So they joined the war.
Why they kept fighting is that they believed that loosing the war would mean a life worse then during the years after WW1 and nobody wanted that.
Luckily this expectation was not fullfilled and that is why germany is a democracy today. The democratic system proved to be the best solution for the average people. So they supported the system and now the large majority of the people are democrats by heart. And we should not forget that there was a tendency or wish for democracy in Germany since the 18s century. So we can not say that the allies brought the democracy to germany. The seed for a democracy was already there.

But is the seed for democracy already there in Iraq ??

I believe Afghanistan is much more promising in that case. The people there have gone through a muslim dictatorship and the democratic government does seem promising to them. This mission can succeed if the west really helps to improve the ecenomic and security situation for the average people there.

Originally posted by skythe

Democracy will not arrive in the Middle East overnight, but that does not make it a cause unworthy to fight for. You think Muslims are unready for Democracy? How will they ever be when you’re not even willing to help them get there? The problems will not disappear simply because you choose to ignore them.
You keep bringing up World War II analogies in your arguments. “Not our problem” was a very popular argument back then as well. When the Germans entered the Ruhr, when you took over Austria or Czechoslovakia, with the Japanese in Manchuria, the Italians in Ethiopia and Fascists in Spain. Wasn’t Europe in for a surprise, huh? Appeasement doesn’t work, Europeans should be the last to think so.

I tell you something what Japan did in China or Manchuria would have been no problem for europe if it would not have been for the british empire. What the fascists did in Spain turned out to be no problem for their neighbours. Germany should have been stopped earlier. The earliest and most promising point would have been in the 1920ies when there were large demonstrations in the Ruhrgebiet against the compensation payments and the french troops in the area. The democratic german government of that time was repeadly asking for a reductin of the compensation payments, as the economic was hard hit during after the world economic crisis.
But the allies refused to do and french troops used force to bring down the demonstrations. This and the economic collapse was what made people hate the allies and support Hitler. Because after that the easy solution he promised (defeat the allies and Germany will prosper again) seemed so simple and good to the average german.
In the 1920 there was a young democracy growing in Germany, but it did not get support it would have needed to stabilize.

In the arab states there is no genuine movement for a democracy. And you can´t force democracy to the people.

Imo the state most likely to become a democracy in the region is Iran. Because large parts of the population are fed up with the current system and have a desire for democracy. But instead of helping that movement we declare Iran to be part of the axis of evil. Which in fact meant that mayn Iranians rallied behind the current system because their country was/is under attack from the outside.

And when I say we should get out of the region, then I mean we should have no troops there. Helping Turkey to stay a democracy can not be done with troops. Democracy must offer a better future to the average people then a muslim dictatoship and it must be clear to the people there. So helping their economy and helping them to prosper is a better way. Make them a partner. We must also cooperate to find elements that want to fight democracy. But the decision must always come from the people, all the west can do is to make the “democratic solution” the most promising for the average people.

Originally posted by pluto77189
Anybody care to remember exactly HOW democracy came to the germans? Through what methods?

Let’s see… Dictator in power, Americans and British invade….yeah….Dictator and evil fascist party removed from power….England and America rebuild Germany….hmmmm….bring in supplies, in defiance of large, hostile forces….
Germany rebuilds….grows, becomes one of Europe’s most pwerful economic and military powers. No Major european war in 60 years…

And that is wrong my friend.

Even before WW1 there were already elections in Germany, yet the ultimate decision remained with the imperator.

After WW1 the imperator was thrown out and Germany became a democracy. Thsi democracy did not bad in the first years, but the world economic crisis and the payments a compensations for WW1 were wrecking the german economy. High unemployment rates, social unrest, etc.
So in 1933 many people believed that their live under a strong ruler (imperator) had been better and they wanted such a person back. Hitler promised this change. And in the first years of his dictatorship the life for the average german did in fact improve.
Why the German went to war for him and´took so much hardship during the war without braking with this regime is beyond my understanding though.
After WW2 most new leaders came from the democratic period within the two World Wars. So the new democracy was largely based on that experience and on that democratic culture. The new democracy also learned from mistakes made during that time. Furthermore the econimic help surely did help to stabilize the democracy, as it helped to stop any hate against the new system from forming. What also helped was the russian thread, as most germans feared the russians after WW2. And in that way the western allies were the smaller of 2 evils.
Today germany has a democratic tradition. The majority of the people have accepted that society as the best for them.

So don´t tell me that the US won the war and invented democracy in Germany.

Originally posted by pluto77189
“You Americans don’t Understand________________”

Typical elitist crap. Of course, “us Americans” don’t have much of a view of the rest of the world. Europeans, however, are more cultured, and have a better understanding of the world’s issues. Being sheltered between the Atlantic and pacific Oceans, we just simply don’t understand the problems of the rest of the world, and as a result, are self-serving, aspiring only wealth and status, and A B O V E A L L…………… P O W E R !
We are so greedy and narrow minded, we ignore the rest of the world. All we care about is the accumilation of our own fortunes.

You know, saying stuff like that is the reason some Americans think Europeans are a bunch of elitists Anti-americans, envious of the fact that America offers such oppurtunity not FATHOMABLE in their country. Just keep posting that stuff, and other Americans will KEEP thinking you guys are having “country envy”.

Last I checked, lack of schools leads to masses of STUPID PEOPLE. Masses of STUPID PEOPLE are very succeptible to religious fanaticisim, and scapegoating. They blame all their problems(stupid people have lots) on people that DON’T have such problems. Compared to the rest of the world, Americans seem worry free, heck, we’re the richest, most visual nation, so why not BLAME us? Educating people leads to sucessful people. Successful, intelligent people create successful countries.

Yes europe is different from the US. We have been through to 2 huge wars in the last century. It was our homes that were destroyed and our children that died.
And most important we have learned that people can fight for a higher goal, without any reason.
I myself can´t understand why the germans fought in Ww2 and especially why they fought so fiercely. And I think the Germans were not uneducated or stupid according to your definition. I mean look at the bombings of our cities, any one reasonable sane would wonder why they contiued to fight under that conditions. And also the attacks grew stronger and stronger it did not break the will of the german population. Could have more schools changed that – I don´t think so.

What made the North Vietnames and the Vietcong fight so fiercely. Should the pure technical superiority of the US have been enough to make them sue for peace ? What motivated them to join the cause and walk all the way to join the fight in the South. What made them live in caves and tunnels for years ? A lack of schools ?

We must accept that people can be motivated for a specific cause, that we in the modern western world ca not understand. Look at the Al Qaeda terrorists, they were all well educated. So a lack of education can´t be the reason.

And that is what I mean, americans always believe that there always is a cure to a problem. But some times there is no simple and quick solution.

If the majority of the people in Turkey want to support such a system, then there is nothing wurope can do. The outcome won´t change.

And I doub they won´t sell us their oil. Cause if they want to have support in the public in their countries, then they need money to purchase goods and wood. The only way to get this money is to sell the oil. Remember that Iran is still selling oil to the west and has been selling oil even during the darkest days of the islamic revolution.

Immigration is nothing I fear. Just use the moeny spent on the war on terror and the colonial adventures and we could ahve a very good border surveillance.
Then some changes to the laws in europe and we could kick tjem out as quickly as they come in.

imo the current situation in the middle east and other moslem countries is that you can either have an islamic regime or a dictatorship (in one form or the other). Democratic tries will always end in the islamic regime.
People need to be ready for democracy and those people are not ready yet. As the germans were not ready for democracy yet after WW1.

Originally posted by pluto77189
well, over a hundred are planned to be BUILT, from the ground up, but around 2,000 are being rebuilt. Additions added, electricity, seweage, plumbing, furniture. THAT’s happenig in the thousands.

The news does report the biulding of new schools, but they don’t do much for the refurbishing, rebuilding of old ones,simply because it’s so widespread.

Much of the supplies come directly from Americans, buying bulk supples, and shiping them directly to Iraq. See it all over the place.

Perhaps the people don´t want schools, they want freedom from forgein occupation.
You americans never do understand that people are devoted to other things then money, status and wealth. You duid never understand the motivation of the vietnamese and you do not understan the motivation of the Iraqi population.

Well I have some further ideas, that would surely get europe out of the targeting sights of islamic terrorists.

The simple solution is to stay out of their areas of interest.

I do not care what is happening in Afghanistan nor did I care about Iraq. We should also get out of the whole middle east trouble spot. Just end support to all sides and let them fight it out. The fortress idea will work better, then playing world police men. There are too many people out there that hate the west at the moment. No chnace in hell we will ever get them all, so the best thing is to keep them out of europe.

Attacks on tourists in arabic nations don´t bother me. There is a simple solution, don´t go there. If we europeans are not welcome, then we can spent our money inside the european community. Let those countries see how they will do without the money.