RE: figaro

Guys don´t you see that this is something completely different. That request does not mean that theforces asked for should fightagainst Irak. These forces should protect a NATO member from the possible effects of war on its border.

It is sad to see the France/Belgium and Germany are really using NATO to support their politcal gains. I´m really ashamed of the behavior by the german government.

NATO is dead now. The EU is equally dead. If I would be a country like Turkey, Poland or the other eastern european states, I would reconsider joining NATO or the EU, cause you can not expect any help from them in a crisis.

It seems to me that Germany, France and Belgium who are no far from any possible conflict, have forgotten that during the other NATO members where also protecting their safety during the time of the cold war.

And the new franco/german peace proposal is laughable. UN soldiers to porect the inspectors and help in the search for WMDs. Yeah sure we learnt in Bosnia how effective these soldiers are.
Furthermore resolution 1441 demands that Iraks prooves what it has done with the WMDs, and the Irak has to proove it no longer has any WMDs. So if the Iraki government fails to comply with the resolution it must face the consequences. The weapons inspection should continue the way they are done now. If the inspectors feel that Irak is not helping enough in the case, then Irak must face the consequences.

More inspectors do not help, if the Irakis are not willing to cooperate. So the question must be if they cooperate. That can only be answered by the inspectors already in Irak. If they feel they are cooperating, then no war. If they say Irak is misleading them and not cooperating, then war is inevitable.

RE: war in Irak and the Franco/German resistance

You want the reason for the current german position. Internal politics. The current social democrats/green government is very weak. They only won the last general election by playing the anti war card – and even then they barely won.
The last weekend saw elections in 2 of the federal states (Bundesländer) and even though Mr. Schröder again played the anti war card (“Vote Social Democrats to stopp the war in Irak”) the social democrats were clearly defeated.

The current government is desperately holding on to power as it has lost support with the majority of the population. The unemployment rate has reached the highest numbers since reunfication, german economy is down, fuel costs more then ever before, taxes have reached an all time high, …..

Given these problems the anti war stance was/is the only chance for the current government to find support in the population. And that is why they are taking that position.
Or in other words the government is so weak, it can not risk to behave against the public opinion in that question.

And public opinion is against the war in nearly every european country.

RE: WAR!!!!!!!!:() Choose your ideal army….

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-02-03 AT 06:38 AM (GMT)]TANK /MBT – Leopard 2 A6

IFV – Bradley M2A3, M3A3

Heavy APC – no need

Light APC – Fuchs APC

scout vehicle – Luchs Wiesel

Missile Light IFV (MLIFV)- TOW 2 , HOT 3, TRIGAT

Antitank Helo – AH-64 D

Recce Helo – Eurocopter Tiger (also good for AA and Anti Tank)

Assault Helo – NH-90

Transport / SAR helo – NH-90 , EH-101

SP Howitzers – PZH 2000

MRL’s – MLRS

Mobile Formation SAM’s – Roland , Gepard , Wiesel Stinger

Man-portable MANPADs – Stinger

ATBM missile systems – Javelin, HOT 3, TRIGAT

RE: Same old Europe

Well to give you the real reason for Germany´s standpoint :

– Election time in two of our federal states.

Mr. Schröders Social Democrats barely won the last general election by playing the pacifist and anit-american card. Now, only a short time later, things are looking bad for them. Unemployment is high, economical data is bad, health sector need reform, social sector need reform -> Put short about 75% of the germans are unhappy with the work by the social democrat / green government.

The latest figures expected the elections in the two federal countries to end with a clear victory for the Christian Democrats, who are in the oposition in the german parliament.

So the Social Democrats and the Greens decided to make these 2 elections, elections about war or peace. You must know that the Chrisitan Democrats are saying, that Germany should decide if we are to support the war or not, when the weapons inspectors give their report. They also say that an active german participation would be limited to medical help and the special troops for ABC warfare. Fighting troops are out of the question. A very reasonable position imo.

So the fact is, that Mr. Schröder is using the fear of a war as a last straw before his party gets defeated in the elections.

(Elp the accident in Afghanistan has nearly no influence in the Iraki problem. The government as played it on a very low level, because otherwise it would become obvious that they are sending german troops into the missions with equipment, that can not be considered as save, because of the age. The reductions in the budget for the Bundeswehr can be linked to the accident and that would mean bad press for them.)

(Another side note : In germany the christian religions are planning for a peace demonstration against the war for early next months. Then we will see the pictures of a friendly smiling SH with a peace dove in the background. Can anyone imagine more irony??)

The French government sees that it can get support from Germany for an anit war standpoint. Furthermore they feel they can play worldpower again now. And one should not forget the France had close links the SH regime during the IPGW. Any replacement government would be more leaning toward the US and the UK, so they would loose the last country in the region, where they have any influence left.

In my opinion I´m against the war there. I´m sure that constant weapons inspection will be sufficent to keep any WMD threat from Irak on a extremely low level. I think the removing of SH from power is not worth the blood of a german soldier or a british or an american or any soldier for that matter. If Mr. Bush could come up with any real evidence for the threat SH poses, then it might be different. At the moment I think this war is a family affair – not more.

RE: The dumb and dumber show

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-01-03 AT 09:49 AM (GMT)]Well apart from the oil, why are Europe and the US suppposed to be involved in the Middle east ??

Saddam Hussein is bad dictator, but I think we can come up with a few regimes that were/are on the same level, yet their were/are friends of the US.

I think this all about oil and the family humilation that the Bushs have suffered, because after Daddy failed to remove Saddam, Saddam is still around when Bush “dump as a stone” junior takes over.

A war against Irak will only raise the potential of Islamic terrorism against the west. And I still have to see proof that SH is involved in the terror against the west.
I mean does anyone believe that he is a real threat to the west. Can you really imagine Irak´s army coming all the way to europe or making an amphibious landing in Florida ?? That is bullshit. The US only wants cheap oil, so that they can continue to pollute the atmosphere with CO2, like no other country in the world. Continue to drive these huge trucks, but we won´t pay with the blood of our soldiers for your oil.

I have always been supporting the US, but your current president is a nutcase imo. He is so focused on Irak, that he fails to see the real threats to the western world. Which are terrorism and religous fundamentalism. (and North Korea)
Although I think the german government is very bad at the moment (and I could do a very long rant about the things that make me angry) but refusing to fight a war in Irak is right. Let the weapons inspectors do their job and let them in as long as needed. If they need 10 years, then so be it. As long as they are in country, Irak won´t be able to built any WMDs. Force Irak into an open sky treaty with the Gulf states, that allows them to overfly Irak.

Norht Korea is much more dangerous the SH has ever been.

RE: Korea..an example?

Well I believe there is only one place in the world where US troops belong and that is the US.

To defend the USA you don´t need troops in Germany, Italy, England, SK, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and god knows where else.

All these countries would be much better off without the US troops stationed there.

RE: Schumi joined the Third Reich?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-12-02 AT 02:11 PM (GMT)]The pic seems real, I apologize. Sorry for believing it was photoshoped.

RE: Schumi joined the Third Reich?

Oh I have nothing against some good jokes about germans. We are not one of the nicest people to go around and our behavior when going aboard leaves much to be desired.

Call us fat white idiots, Krautfresser or whatever you like.
I would not care.

But the brits always call us Nazis. I mean the spanish have a lot of nice names for the germans, as have the austrians, the US, …

But only the brits like to link germany with the Nazis on every possible occasion.