In fact, the F-117 has waay lowest RCS of all those. Being comparatively small to B-2A, it has higher RCS/area ratio, ergo its stealth design is less advanced than with the Spirit, yet RCS-wise it still is an aircraft that is most difficult to pick up on radar.
Raptor is nowhere near its RCS values, in fact, it is only a semi-stalth design, you cannot have exceptional values of agility plus stealth at one stroke, you have to sacrifice something..
Now that is a statement I can´t agree with. Just because F-117 looks more stealthy does not mean it is more stealthy. Consider the time when the F-117 was designed, then the form it uses was mainly dictated by the available computer power needeed to calculate the exact from to achieve a set RCS. Unfortunately the computer technology of the time meant that the form should be a simple as possible. The meant facetting was the choice.
Rounded stealth has been deomnstrated with the comarable Shamu and the B-2. Given the fact that the design of the F-22 was finalized more then a decade after F-117 the increase in computing power makes it possible that they could achieve the same RCS reduction using a more conventional form.
Go Boeing !!
Just more cry baby talk coming out of the Airbus camp.
The answer is simple. I wanted to point out that comparing single pieces of equipment is pratically worthless. For example testing the F-22 against a Su-300 will give you a result, which must not be the same as when facing an integrated air defense network containing multiple radrs using bi-static tactics and different wave lengths.
The same with US weapons. One on one the difference is not that huge. Combined however they are very hard to match.
Example : The AGM-88 HAARM. Just seeing the performance of the missile itself it is not a huge danger to the enemy. As it can be easily tricked by turning off your radar (older versions). However as a factor in a combined strike, the HARM carrier becomes an invaluable enabeler for the strikers.
Same wit hthe F-22 pitted in one on one fight against an enemy fighter it is much more in danger, then as a silent hunter that is able to go after the enemy interceptors that are searching for the strikers. In that situation the strikers help the Raptor and the Raptor helps the strikers.
I suppose I should have worded my statements more carefully. When I said tracked, I meant as in a lock-on. I’ve never heard any indication that the Serbs actually locked on the aircraft in a traditional sense. The F-117 was indeed painted by the radar (so the RWR in the Nighthawk picked up the signal), and using the timing of NATO strike packages among other things (other aircraft being in the sky, etc.), the Serbs knew they had a -117, and as such a barrage of missiles was fired with minimal guidance (effectivelly ballistically). In the end, they still got lucky. If NATO had used more variety in their timing, altitudes, etc. then that F-117 would likely have never been downed. The F-117 is not a perfect airplane, but it’s still a lot more difficult to shoot down than anything else flying except for the Raptor and B-2. I’m not making any of this up ink. I’m basing it on the various accounts I’ve read of the incident.
They never achieved a lock-on. The RWR never told the pilot, that the plane was in danger and he tried to avoid the missiles and I personally doubt, that they ever had it on their screens. However they had the SA-3 updated with a low-light TV camera as a secondary guidance method. Knowing the time will be flying, they were able to visually track the plane and hit it with manually guided SA-3.
That’s not necessarily true. It’s no big secret that we’ve obtained things like the Su-27 and S-300 SAM system. You’d think we’ve taken such things apart and analyzed them to all hell, and know quite a bit about their systems and capabilities. With all the ELINT data we constantly collect as well, you’d think we know a good bit about the workings and characteristics of Russian emitters as well, and could evaluate the F/A-22 design against such things.
No doubt about it. But there a various modifications going around that can make a huge impact on the performance of such systems. Remember how the IAF Mirage 2000s surprised the USAF, due to some local modifications.
However I agree that it most probably has been tested against all likely enemey systems.
And with overhyped I mean that most people focus on the stealth capability of the plane, but this is only additional. What defines the F-22 is not the supercruise and not the stealth factor, it is the highly integrated situational awareness increasing avionics fit. Plane to plane and plane to network communication, the AESA radar, the highly integrated EWR suit that is good enough to engage an enemy fighter just using that system. Those factors define the plane.
Stealth just gives it an additional advantage.
Not that good? What’s the factual basis for that statement? Care to explain how the F-15, F-16, B-2, AIM-120, and M-1 aren’t any good? And yes, we have not fought any air forces that were very capable for a good deal of time. At the very least we completely dominated those that we did fight, which would be expected if we were better trained and better equipped. The biggest explanation for that is that the Cold War ended, and that most of the other actually capable air arms are our own allies.
Not that good means, that every single of the weapon systems is perhaps just a tad (if at all) better then their russian counterparts. If you compare a SU-35 to a F-15 they are very close overall, same with a F-16 with a MiG-29 of a comparable upgrade standard. The R-77 to the AMRAAM..
What in the end makes the US systems better is the integrated nature of their use and the available support components. E-3 AWACS, Rivet Joint, Compass Call, etc. add to the overall warfighting strength and give the edge to the pilots and planes in the frontline, that can´t be matched by most opponents.
Same with the M-1. A good tank, but not much better then a T-80/T-90, Leo2 or LeClerc or Challenger2. In battle however it enjoyed the support of the wonderfull Joint Stars, the predator UAVs, the Apache and Kiowa helicopters, the MLRS launchers, the M-2 and all of those closely integrated into one functioning system. And with lots of available support by the Air Force. Add the great troops and the good training the whole system becomes very hard to match, the single piece of equipment is not the deciding factor.
Fabolus shots. How is spotting at Madrid ? Viewing terrace ?
Problem for F-117 was not idiotic mission planning but other things.
Primary, it was SAM-3 modified radar. Just like modified radar of SAM-6 was cause of F-16 shooting down over Bosnia in 1994.Regarding Mig-31, I did not say that it had combat experience, but that it is well proven aircraft. It entered service 23 years ago !!
From previous experience, it is known that capabilities of all american fighters is exaggerated in open literature, in their early service life.
F-22 is certainly not exception.
Not that true about the F-117.
The serbs knew exactly where and when the F-117 will be in the area. The altitude and the heading. Add a clear nigt a modified radar and a visual back-up and you get an F-117 with an SA-3.
US hardware is generally totally hyped. They are not that good. They just had the luck that they did not fight any serious, good equipped and dedicated enemy since Nam. If the IrAF would have come up to fight in the first night, they would have scored kills. Many kills.
and what are those gadgets? :confused:
Also, does anyone know what is the engine’s settings in AB for the Mig31 to cruise at M2.4? Looking up the internal fuel and TSFC of the engine, something doesn’t quite make sense.
Updated IRST. Bi-static airborne radar or the ability to emit from one radar and process using the data from the wingeman.
Special groundbased radar. Lock-on emitter missiles. Long range IR missiles.
F-22 is totally overhyped and has only been tested against US system, which they knew everything about and could design the plane to be better. The real test will come if it faces russian, french or chinese planes.
Love the IB 757
great pics – love the BMI Regional
The pane is nice, but the user ….
At the moement that lack of long range fire and forget missilies on the MiG-31 give it real disadvantage.
However the comparison is very wrong. One should compare the SU-35 to the Raptor. Now that would be really interesting if you take a SU with all the latest russian anti stealth gadgets installed.
nice shots – 🙂