STOP PRESS

Not Lossie, but here is a Wyvern that I captured in the fire compound at Gosport on a trip to Navy Day at Lee on Solent. I would guess about 1960.

Mark

MY GOD !!!!! STOP PRESS !!!!,:eek::eek::eek::eek::):):D:D

that PHoto is of the ACTUAL WYVERN that was thrown in the Chalk Pit at Gosport,
Records state !!

VR136, Not Delivered: To Gosport 20.5.50(ex CS(A)Charge) as GI,
Derelict at Gosport (local code “916” applied,Probably either A2226 or A2228,1959;pushed into chalk pit along with other aircraft,and filled in by Bulldozer on the boundary of Gosport a/f c. July 1959

They might not have stripped this one as it was a one off, as it was never delivered, and used as a GI, airframe, chances are if they were going to junk it, I imagine it went in as is, it seems to have been stood for a few years, and being as it wasnt delivered, and allready stripped in the photo, and also the wyvern was pretty much out of date by then, i cant imagine them saving any of it, in those days i expect it wasjust rubbish, a bit extreme, But chuck it in a hole in the ground, and forget about it, a instant solution to a Eyesore (at the time)neatly dumped out of site out of mind !.

Right Thats it who fancies a Sniff at this Brute then !!!!!, I reckon even the RN may help if we can locate it, it would be worth finding this one for the Nation, it was the “Pushed in bit i liked, no mention of crushing etc , or broken up, and to think THERES a actual photo of her, god this got to be researched !!:):):D

Anyone with a nose for archaeology or any other way we can make a useful team to hunt this one down, Please PM me, we could even approach the MOD/RN on this one

Creaking Door, I cannot help but agree with you! Before I looked (which was only after your post above) I had assumed it was some grisly-gory relic torn from an unfortunate casualty and was more than a little surprised to see something that, well, really is not that shocking in the context of what is being sold. My son bought back some Army kit he had been wearing. It too was bloodstained. He hadn’t been wounded, or in a fight, or even injured. He had a nose-bleed!

Ok Ok, you are all right, Perhaps i over reacted with it, It was just the guys wording ,almost like “COOL YEH BLOODSTAINS AN ALL”:cool: , I didnt see any bullet entry etc, so yeh you could be right, Perhaps he tripped over a Pebble and cut his thumb, and wiped it on his jacket, to be honest i was joining in with the “OH My God “Brigade, 😀

Its only some sand jockeys anyway, I overreacted,Sorry :diablo:

1986 Act, confusion ??

there is something I am Unsure of regarding this act,

Was this Act Actually brought in to protect wrecks at sea, IE wrecks like the HMS Royal Oak, or Prince of Wales/Repulse etc, to stop divers pilfering lost Ships and to protect the wargraves of the many lost seaman on these ships,

I know in other countrys that war ships have been stripped, I even heard that the “HMS Prince of Wales” was targetted a few years back for her Bronze Screws being Very hefty in wieght they were quite desirable in Weight to a organisation /indiiduals who wanted to recover them for sale of the precious metals, I hate to think How Much those Battle ship Screws where worth on the scrap market , I hated the Idea becuase my Uncle was on that ship when the Japs Bombed her,

But I understand that this Bill /Act whatever they want to call it was really for ships a aircraft “Lost at Sea” and then they used the bill as a excuse as a Blanket for ALL wrecks on land and sea, and as such, “WHAT” constitutes as a wreck, to my mind a wreck is a aircraft on the surface or under the sea, which can be seen as a wreck, but at what level Does “WRECKAGE” constitute as a wreck ?? what i mean by this is wreckage is just that, it is not a wreck , only sporadic bits on the surface, I follow the act to the letter , But it has allways worried me, say if i find a crashsite and the farmer takes me to the field, and say he has Just ploughed the field, on the surface for say a acre spread are tiny fragments that remain from a incident.if i pick up some of these fragments ,does that constitute breaking the law, or is that reasonable to accept that it is Not against the law, because walkers etc anyone can pic up some of these tiny fragments maybe a data plate if your lucky, because as any archaeologist knows to find the site you need a small metal detector to locate the site ,you rarely can see anything on the surface unless you are on top of it to locate it,so in a prelimanary search you need to find the crash site thats really the only way,then when you are sure you have found a site ,then use the Magnetometer to asetain if there is anything there (strong signals) that warrants sending for a licence as i belive Most sites dont have much left either because of prevoius digs or the nature of the incident, Do the MOD take a Dim view of this, and also do they realise that you need to do a preliminary search to find a crashsite???

as I cant see how you can constitute a few pieces of surface skinning and a say a bit of perspex and a couple of say 303 cartridges as a “Wreck”,

Perhaps you could answer this one Tangmere, or anyone, it is such a GREY area, :confused:;)

Fully agree, Tangmere, I dont think theres anything left to say, 😀
this Debate has I think come to a conclusion, with all the cards on the table,

I think those that Agree, And those who disagree, SHOULD Agree to Differ !

we all have our opinions, I just hope this thread has proved Informative all be it a little on the subject at hand, from all sides :D:);)

Not living in the UK, I imagine theft of high ground relics would have been rampant.Sometimes you can see photos of wrecks back in the 80s compard to today and there is not much left. Keep in mind though, didn’t the MOD clear some wrecksites to put an end to reports of a downed aircraft?

Just another thing, That does not include the literally Hundreds of wrecksites that were recovered with no permission during the 60s and 70s and early 80s,
When in the 70s the MOD reliquished all Ownership of any wreck, giving it to the land owner, it was only after 1986 that the law changed back to MOD ownership .

In the 60s and especailly the 70s Groups sprang up every where and were leapfrogging over one another to get the best finds, youve all seen the “Then and Now ” series books, the stuff that was found was of monumental proportions , and mainly ended up in private collections,

Just another point, alot of relics recovered in the 60s a 70s has now found its way on the likes of e-bay due to the original archaeologists passing away,
or getting old and have sold there collection to Dealers, there is a dealer in Dorset i know who activly searches to buy these relics to sell, I have bought bits from him before , I got a engine valve from a JU87 which come from a complete engine that he broke up which was pulled out of Pagham many years ago, he has allways been pretty good(ie not making historys up) so i have no reason to disbelieve him,

and to be honest, where else would i get a bit of JU87 from the Tangmere Raid ,to be honest i do not know much more about it, if anyone has any clues i would love to know, I believe it was recovered just off the coast off Pagham harbour, or in the harbour ?:D

What is all the fuss about?! If the prop bit was being sold by the owner (i.e. the Graces or someone who was given it by them) then who cares?! Better still if at least some of the proceeds went to the Graces Spit. I actually bid on it when it was low, because it is a rather nice and recognisablke piece of Mr Mitchells masterpiece.

Kev35, I do respect your views, mostly, but please do temper down your responses…the world of aircraft recovery is actually already controlled enough…far more than other war losses/sites. I pray we never go into the realms of the over bureacracy you suggest. Aircraft recovery is not everyone’s cup of tea, but at least the main part is positive with passionate people recognising the supreme sacrifice. One can band around figures of how many 1000s of Bomber Command or Fighter Command etc died, but only when you make one of their losses personal do you fully realise that all these people had lives, friends and relatives.

I do wish that these threads did not deteoriate in such a way, but then again we are all human..:)

Just wanted to clarify something to all who read, !!
this is quite a good thread, with input from both sides of a “DEBATE” its nice to see we can have a debate without it being a slanging match.
I do not see any such “slanging match” between me or anyone else, Just Honest Debate, which for me and Kev 35 is a first:D,LOL
I have actually enjoyed this thread, it brings out all the aspects into the open on Both sides of the argument , Now over to the Chairman ;):D:diablo:

selling of parts,

Mmmm tricky one this,

It would be nice to see some of the proceeds of the sale go towards the Grace spit, as a curtious measure, especailly when i doubt the seller had any idea that a tiny piece of splintered prop, which is essencailly rubbish had such a high bid, I was quite shocked myself £127 for a bit of firewood, Its laughable,

I personally have no problem with it, and feel I have no right to complain, because no laws have been broken as far as I can see, even if some feel this is morally wrong.

It does annoy me how the Aviation fraternity all the time get on there righteous pulpips preaching the Aviation Gospel to all and sundry.

I used to scorn people who sold bits of aircraft myself believe it or not
years ago, but a few things changed my mind on this subject,

1, was that i believed that only groups and societys/Museums should have these historical items, however this was when many years ago I joined the South west aircraft recovery group,1972-1988,who like many other groups amassed a lot of parts from digs etc, and tried very hard to find “any Museum, or place they could put these items on display in the countys they worked in, they “Nearly secured the tower at old RAF Charmy Down ” but because of road access were denied by the council, it seemed to poor old (late) Goerge Morley that Not one intitution was interested, I feel at that time if it had been “Roman” archaeology the Intitutions would have been diferent,the sad thing was when the group split up long after I left ,the collection was dispersed, and or scrapped.:eek:,the same goes for the Severnside Aviation Society, Most of there collection was sold to a anotherindividual and then a famous author who is well known for spitfire books,My friend who actually found these parts in the early 1980s was disgusted to see them on ebay years later for the princely sum of £2000, but when the SAS broke up, because the group leader was tired of aviation, he sold the lot, the same goes for many Museums etc that have since closed, so I have a complete distrust of Museums etc I now feel it better for Individuals who want pieces to have them, at least they “Want” the Items and after paying good money would be fools not to look after there investments, Its not like we are looking at treasure trove is it ???,.

Also so many aircraft that people HAVE died in at airshows etc , have been rebuilt, I was only told yesterday of a Spitfire that was involved in a fatal crash in recent years was sold and is now being rebuilt.

Aviation Archaeology IS a poor mans Game, its a way of someone finding a part , a link with history that they can treasure and research, because if the aircraft types they were looking for were affordable, they would buy the aircraft not bits, but Aircraft are at rediculous prices, that have been pushed up by only those that can afford them, I cant see much diference between an old Tank or Bentley, or old Motorbike, whatever floats your boat, truth is we will never stop it , But the sad way of todays world is Everything IS about the Sordid Dollar, from stationary engines to Aircraft parts, whatever people are passionate about, there is allways someone there to make a buck out of it,

Then there is the digs, sometimes so much is found and it can be very costly to do (a full scale dig) .if a licence is granted and a site is dug, I dont know of anyone who has dabbled in Aviation archaeology who would stop half way through and say “Whoa” i think we have enough now ” leave the rest in there for someone else, It just doesnt happen, the Whole lot comes out, for fear of missing something better at the bottom of the hole, and what happens to all these Items ??, Well I am sure after the group/Individual, has there pieces, then nice pieces are donated to a Museum, “What happens to the Scrap???” it seems to me the scrap ends up on ebay , you normally see bits of twisted airframe etc for sale, But not often you see a Dug up merlin, Or cockpit Panel from a dig on ebay do you ??, all thats on there is the scrap most of the time , and if someone wants to buy some scrap, and make a nice display with it etc, then Why not i say??, rather than it being taken by a scrap man, or dumped in someones shed ,never even cleaned and covered in earth.

Also there are many people who Cannot do Aviation archaeology or visit airshows etc, so they Buy bits and bobs fo there collections .

I Wonder if you feel the same about say accident damaged Vintage car restorers or any other Hobby where Parts are scavenged, a good example would be the many WW2 tanks and Vehicle Hulks that trade for ludicrous amounts of money, many coming from the old USSR , all sorts of german/Russain tanks etc,that were “Knocked out” and the crews Killed ,only now to be sold as Restoration Toys for those with Lots of Cash.

Another example would be those firms who Buy “FATAL” accident written off cars/Motorcycles , to strip and sell the parts to who ever wants to buy them, they just see it as “Parts reclemation” . and as such are making money out of someones death, or severe injury.

I think I am just getting across the point that its happening all over the world, and its in all walks of life, it is a western disease, the Idea that CASH can let you do anything, or buy anything, as long as you got cash to do it !
and if some iddiot wants to spend £127 on a piece of splintered wood , then all i can say is he /she ,Must find this piece extremely disirable,frankly i think there mad .
all down to supply and demand i suppose, and the high passion of aviation, which to be frank if people never had the passion then the likes of airshows,digs, Historical artifacts etc would not have such a big part to play in our history as its only the people with the passion and that are mad enough to pay £127 for a bit of TAT, all be it this perticular incident is to the extreme.
I personally wish the aircraft market was not dictated by “PRICE” , then the likes of me and others would not be “Bought” out of the market , I could then “Afford” to buy a old merlin to restore or anything aircraft orientated type project that i endevoured to do.

Just one more thing PLEASE do not think this is a rant, etc, I just thought i would put my views across rightly or wrongly, Just a opinion, with my honest thoughts, I may be wrong, But this active outcry against “aircraft relics ” sales “SEEMS” to be Only with the Aviation enthusiast fraternity, I wish someone could prove me different ??