hopsalotWell, the rafale and typhoon initially replaced air superiority fighters, so the PGM capability was not that important.
Omnirole… remind me who invented that term again?
Regardless of what aircraft the Rafale and Eurofighter were slated to replace initially, both were intended to be multirole fighters and both first saw combat… paired with a more mature aircraft with a working targeting pod.
The rafale was on time and budget. The F-35 cost more to develop that the rafale, EF, gripen, SH combined, and even much more than the F-22. It will reach IOC 5-6 years late with huge cost overruns and reduced cababilities.
No question the F-35’s development has been hugely expensive and troubled, but it is hardly the first aircraft to suffer difficulties in development and a troubled development does not rule out a hugely successful operational life.
F-35 fanboyism is rather ridiculous with you consider all that. F-35 proponents should rather keep a low profile and be honest that frankly the F-35 program is nothing to brag about…
This is a military aviation forum and the F-35 is by far the largest and highest profile fighter program in the world today. It is more than a little ridiculous that you would suggest “F-35 proponents” should “keep a low profile.” Why? So the usual suspects can bash the program continually and roll out the same discredited arguments over and over again? Here we are yet again discussing whether or not it will be capable of performing peacetime air policing missions. :very_drunk:
As for bragging, despite its programmatic shortcomings the F-35 once operational will offer some really incredible capabilities. There are very good reasons why its proponents include many of the most capable air forces in the world today.
hopsalotThe F-35 will be limited to 2 AAMs until 2018 so it won’t really be usable for air defense. For strike it will be limited to 2 types of weapons, the 2000lbs JDAM, and GBU-12. It will not have the LJDAM before block 4, no SDB1 until 2018, no SDB2 until block 4, no laser guided rocket before who knows when…
It will be limited for CAS although it can help in that role ( no gun, 2 types of weapons only, no ROVER ).
The rafale also has ROVER:
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/a-wide-range-of-smart-and-discrete-sensors/The rafale and typhoon will have better multirole capabilities initially. The F-35 will be basically a super F-117 for the first 3 years, with extra ISR capabilities due to its advanced sensors.
What is your point? That aircraft that went operational 15 years ago are more mature today than the F-35? Of course they are…
When the “Omnirole” Rafale went operational in 2001 it had only a very basic air to air capability, and nothing else. Magic IR guided missiles and radar guided Mica. No Link-16, no targeting pod, limited EW fit…
Even in 2007 the Rafale wasn’t able to self designate LGBs while on deployment to Afghanistan and needed to operate paired with aircraft with operational targeting pods. (The Typhoon relied on a similar arrangement to conduct strikes in Libya in 2011.)
When it goes operational the F-35 will have only a limited set of its eventual capabilities, just like every other aircraft. Unlike the Rafale and Eurofighter it will be capable of employing JDAMs and LGBs from day one.
——edit——-
An AMRAAM wouldn’t work for air policing? Really? :stupid:
hopsalotf-35 can reach mach 1.6, so what your point? sure EF-2000 and Rafale can reach mach 1.8 so they will be faster at intercepting dodgy airliner but then again if that is the main poin why dont just use F-4 or F-106 instead? alot cheaper and faster, also i dont understand why you would need to intercept an aircraft to investigate what it doing? cant you just saw everything on radar and talk to them on radio?
Only if the Rafale and Eurofighter are flying clean. How many times do we have to revisit the same things on this board? In a clean comparison the F-35 has a lower top speed than something like a Rafale, F-18, Super Hornet, etc. Once you add 2-4 missiles and a drop tank on the other fighters to match how they would fly on a real-world air policing mission their speed advantage is gone.
It is ridiculous to suggest that air policing is some kind of challenging mission that the F-35 would struggle to complete. Any modern fighter has ample performance for air policing missions in peacetime. If air policing really is the only mission that a country needs to concern itself with then it would be well advised to just buy some FA-50s.
hopsalotWell, in fact no. fench F3-R should not have HMDS, but a HMDS is under integration ‘aswell as a SATCOM btw), probably for indian clients.
…and the F-35 goes operational next year. People need to be consistent. If they want to go with the whole “the F-35 isn’t even operational” then they can drop the talk about Typhoons with AESAs, Rafales with helmet mounted sights, and the entire Gripen NG.
hopsalotWho is we?
And that is exactly the point. That buying an F-35 is like buying a Bugatti. You have to be filthy rich to afford one and even more rich to run it. But the original F-35 wasn’t meant to be a luxury supercar or a limo – it was meant to be a decent sedan for middle class.
Alright, I am cautiously optimistic that you are making some progress here.
To complete the analogy, what do car would you like to assign to the F-35’s competitors? Ferraris? Aston Martins? Rolls Royce?
There is no question at all that the F-35 is extremely expensive. The problem is when fanboys start ranting about the F-35’s price, ignoring the fact that its competitors are very much in the same ballpark. The F-35 may be the most expensive of the bunch right now, but only incrementally, and it offers substantial performance and long-term sustainment/programmatic advantages.
If there is a “sedan for the middle class” in the fighter aircraft market it would be something like a Super Tucano, FA-50, Scorpion, etc.
Imagine a typical European taxpayer family – two kids, a four-room house with 25-year mortgage, Benz C-class for the man and Opel Astra for the wife. These folks are the ones who are paying the air force and the whole government.. the govt officials don’t have a fleet of Bugattis at hand… then why do you expect the air force to have them?
Ok, now your little analogy is going off the rails completely. Are you suggesting that a “typical European taxpayer family” should also have submarines, helicopters, tanks, missile launchers and the like? Governments buy some awfully expensive assets for the collective good of their citizens. (ideally) There is of course a legitimate debate about the role of government, etc etc, but projecting that debate solely onto the F-35 is silly.
hopsalotIn return you were given three dozens of professional forces who don’t and most likely won’t buy it…
As with the previous post, I don’t have time to correct you point by point, but the above demonstrates that you still don’t get what we are talking about on a fairly fundamental level.
You aren’t listing countries that chose not to buy the F-35. You are listing countries that for the most part never had or never will have the option to purchase the F-35.
It would be like me announcing that I didn’t choose to buy a Bugati today or that I didn’t choose to take Jennifer Lawrence out on a date last weekend.
hopsalotI don;t understand your bizarre need to become irrational , I mean MSphere listed Legitimate Air Forces…Nations , some of which are allies to the USA ( Qatar, Saudi Arabia) yet they have CHOSEN other airframes despite the fact that they could easily have afforded F 35’s. So you discount them as unimportant. Son, far more to life than the F 35…and no matter how you wine on here, there will be others that have opinions just as valid as yours, but differ, Nations that CHOOSE NOT to buy the F 35, for any number of reasons. Don;t take it personally, unless YOU work for Lockmart. Some times Nations and people see through the hype and BS and “shiny new bobble” mentality and see it for what it is……
I don’t have sufficient time to correct everything that is erroneous in your post. Russia, China, Venezuela? None of these will ever be offered the F-35. The fact that they haven’t purchased F-35s is hardly an argument against the F-35.
The F-35 also has not been made available to the US’s Gulf allies, though this will presumably change sometime in the coming years. So once again, the fact that the Saudis have not yet purchased the F-35 means nothing.
(Reuters) – Gulf buyers are nearing decisions to buy more current generation fighter jets, but the buzz at the Dubai Airshow was about Lockheed Martin Corp’s (LMT.N) radar-evading F-35 fighter – a plane not yet operational and not even on display there.
The U.S. government sent a big delegation to this year’s show, eager to reassure Gulf leaders about their continued commitment to the region despite policy differences over Syria and Iran and signs that Egypt is looking at buying Russian weapons after a slowdown in U.S. military aid.
For the first time, U.S. government and industry officials also spoke about the process under way to allow the sale of the Lockheed jet to the Gulf – probably about five years after Israel receives its first F-35 fighter jets in 2016.
U.S. policy guidelines call for Israel to maintain a competitive military edge.
One Gulf source familiar with the region’s defense market said the F-35 was generating a degree of excitement even before any U.S. decision to allow its sale to Gulf buyers.
The possibility that the F-35 aircraft might become available could explain why Gulf countries are taking their time with decisions on purchases of other fighters, the source said.
Heidi Grant, deputy assistant secretary of the U.S. Air Force for international programs, said Gulf buyers were focused on buying more fourth-generation jets but were clearly interested in the F-35 – a so-called “fifth-generation” warplane designed to be nearly invisible to enemy radar.
“They’re just asking me to monitor it, and when it becomes available let (them) know,” Grant told Reuters in an interview. “They understand that we haven’t made a policy decision to open up in this region right now.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/21/us-airshow-dubai-fighters-idUSBRE9AK14Z20131121
Strong demand from Gulf countries for Lockheed Martin Corp’s F-35 fighter jet has prompted Washington to grapple with the thorny question about releasing the jet to the region sooner than expected, a senior U.S. defense official said.
Washington has already approved sales of the new stealth fighter to a range of allies, including Turkey,
South Korea,Japan and Israel, but sales to the Gulf require a deeper review given U.S. policy guidelines that call for Israel to maintain a qualitative military edge in the Middle East.Talk about selling the plane to the United Arab Emirates and other U.S. allies in the Gulf came into the open during the Dubai air show last month, with potential buyers weighing whether to buy existing planes or wait for the U.S. government to release the new radar-evading F-35.
Government officials and industry experts have said they do not expect Washington to allow the sale of the F-35 to Gulf countries until around 2020, just short of five years after Israel receives its first F-35 fighters in 2016.
The senior U.S. official said the depth of interest in the new fighter – the Pentagon’s most expensive weapons program – from Gulf countries came as a surprise to some in the U.S. government. Israel and Japan have also ordered the jet.
hopsalotThere are even many more… Algeria, Brazil, Morocco, Qatar, Bahrain, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia… make it another dozen..
So if I understand you correctly, you want this to be some kind of a contest between all countries on earth that have and all those that have not purchased the F-35 to date. :stupid:
Why stop there? Why not include the Ottoman Empire? Sure, they ceased to exist almost a hundred years ago, but they didn’t buy the F-35 while they did exist so clearly they weren’t big believers, right? :very_drunk:
Yes… what’s your problem with these statements?
Indeed, what could possibly be the problem? Look at Argentina, their newest fighters are 30+ years old, but they aren’t F-35s, so there is a point against the F-35. :eagerness:
Try thinking for a moment. Compare the F-35 to other post Cold War fighters and try to find me one that has received as enthusiastic a reception.
Eurofighter? Nope… (Sales to Austria-15, Saudi Arabia,-72 and Oman-12)
Rafale? Nope… (No sales to date)
Gripen? Nope… (Sales to Brazil-36, S. Africa-26, Thailand-12)
Super Hornet? Nope… (Sale to Australia-36)
Note that all of the above have had a 10+ year head start on the F-35 and not one of them has matched what the F-35 has achieved pre-IOC.
hopsalotRussia – Pak FA
China – Mixed
India – Rafale
Belgium – Probably Gripen or F16V
Czech R. – Gripen
Slovakia – Gripen
Bulgaria – F16 or Gripen
Romania – F16 (third hand)
Hungaria – Gripen
Switzerland – Gripen sleected but unfinanced
SwAF – Gripen
France – Rafale
South Africa – Gripen
Thailand – Gripen
Brazil – Gripen
Argentina – Unlikely to even consider F35 or be considered as buyers
Venezuela – Su 30
Saudi Arabia – Eurofighter
Croatia – (Likely Gripen)
Greece – Likely to get T1 Eurofighters 🙁
Austria – Proud owners of Eurofighter
Poland – Will buy 64 new fighters, F-35 not affordable 🙁
Spain – Pulled out of F35
Oman – EurofighterRoughly a handful wouldn’t be allowed to buy the F35, most are NATO members or buy western fighters. There are some more but the list is 24 now. The only unprofessional air forces would be Romania ans South Africa due to sh!te politics, but I think the air force personell is quite decent and professional.
Wow… :stupid:
Now lets remove those sales that took place before the F-35 was even available…. and those “sales” that haven’t happened yet… and those sales that never could have happened.
I mean really? Gripen leases? “Likely to get T1 Eurofighter?” China, Argentina, Russia… counting Poland as “F-35 not affordable?”
I know this is the internet, but is it really so painful to just back off a stupid statement instead of trying to defend it?
hopsalotI recall exactly what I have said. One reference was M2000 (US-made argument) and one was the F-18 (single-engine argument). The fact that it doesn’t get into your melon is not exactly my problem, is it?
Once more,
The reason is the same why the F-16 has attracted much more interest than Mirage 2000 and much more interest than F-18. It’s a) US-made (political leverage, available weaponry…) and it’s b) single-engined (should mean affordable, LOL).
You aren’t helping yourself here. Nobody that speaks English is going to be convinced your sentence says something other than what it does.
All the grey ones..
Seriously though. You claimed:
There are another two dozens of professional air forces who think otherwise and buy something else.
So I will repeat… why not name the two dozen professional air forces you claim have bought something else. It shouldn’t be hard since we both know you wouldn’t go making things up again.
:eagerness:
hopsalotLooks like momentum continues to build:
Pentagon says Lockheed met target for 36 F-35 deliveries in 2014
(Reuters) – Lockheed Martin Corp met its target of delivering 36 F-35 fighter jets to the U.S. government in 2014, paving the way for the firm to collect most of the associated performance fees, a spokesman for the Pentagon’s F-35 program office said Monday.
The U.S. government on Monday accepted the last of the 36 jets due to be delivered by Lockheed this year, said Joe DellaVedova, spokesman for the F-35 program office.
The company accelerated deliveries in the final months of the year to meet the target.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/22/us-lockheed-martin-fighter-idUSKBN0K01X820141222
hopsalotHow about reading my response thoroughly? It clearly says F-18…
I quoted you. You said :
The reason is the same why the F-16 has attracted much more interest than Mirage 2000 and much more interest than F-18. It’s a) US-made (political leverage, available weaponry…) and it’s b) single-engined (should mean affordable, LOL).
Read what you wrote since you seem to struggle to recall.
They have decided to skip the so called 5th gen which in their eyes obviously doesn’t offer that much over what they already have. Certainly nothing worth $80-100 billion for another program.
Ah yes, “skip.” :very_drunk:
Stupid reasoning, indeed. There are another two dozens of professional air forces who think otherwise and buy something else.
Really? Why not name the couple dozen of them then? :eagerness:
hopsalotThing is, Typhoon and F35 are not directly comparable and you shouldn’t feel so threatened by it Hopsalot. A lot of countries are looking to procure the F35 because it’s a Harrier replacement or is better than the Harrier ever was. Others are buying it for the same reasons they bought the F16 a generation ago. Others still are tempted by the LO technology.
The only potential threat Typhoons are those in the Saudi air force, and even that is hardly likely.
The reason the F-35 has had such great success as an export product is because it is what most of the market wants. A new generation multirole fighter that can perform the full range of missions most forces are tasked with.
Typhoon is excellent at what it does for the RAF and they still can’t get enough of it. Guess what, they are excited about the F35 too. You shouldn’t feel so threatened.
Of course they are, it is an excellent aircraft. There is no conceivable world where the US and UK are going to war. If you mean “threat” as an export competitor… well that doesn’t make much more sense. The Eurofighter will be going out of production right around the time the F-35 is going into full-rate production.
On the Euro 5th gen thing, how many European countries are buying the F35 because it is stealthy?
European countries who would put their aircraft in harms way on day one are looking to replace Typhoon and Rafale with a family of designs that will be 6th generation in your parlance rather than aping the 1990s F35 outer lines.
…and who is going to build these 6th generation planes? You can’t just turn an industry on and off. Given that there isn’t even a serious design study ongoing I am more than a little skeptical that a new European fighter will emerge before sometime well into the 2030s.
hopsalotThe reason is the same why the F-16 has attracted much more interest than Mirage 2000 and much more interest than F-18. It’s a) US-made (political leverage, available weaponry…) and it’s b) single-engined (should mean affordable, LOL).
The F-16 drew more interest than the Mirage 2000 because the F-16 was single engined? :stupid:
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The only neglect I can imagine would be go buying foreign while you got your own.
They aren’t buying much of anything, that is the point. If Europe wanted to continue in the fighter industry they would have to launch a 5th generation program. Given that they aren’t going to do that any time soon the show is over for Europe’s industry.
Regarding capabilities of the F-35, it’s only marginally better than Eurocanards (read the latest Canadian report) while pretty much every perspective design in existence (J-20, J-31, PAK-FA, F-XX) looks more promising in that regard, if you ask me.. For me, the F-35 is on the best way to become the disappointment of the decade.
It is just your opinion against a dozen professional forces. :eagerness:
Yes. I don’t mean that cartoonish looking thing from the CGs floating around the web, but simply a fully A-G capable Tranche XX with Captor-E radar, Litening IV, IFF Mode 5 and beyond, HMSS, MIDS, towed decoys and advanced ECM. In the restrictive financial environment of EU budgets it’s probably the best thing they can do.
Where are they going to get the airframes? If Germany’s entire fighter fleet is 100ish 4th generation jets it won’t matter how upgraded they are. Aren’t you the one that is always complaining about shrinking force structures?
hopsalotThey are European.. still cheaper to procure and to operate… and you got all technology and codes readily at hand.. and I am not entirely convinced that they will be significantly inferior to the F-35, despite all that 4th Gen / 5th Gen blabber.
Willful ignorance is not a virtue. If you still can’t understand why the F-35 has drawn the level of interest it has, in sharp contrast to that drawn by the Eurocanards I might remind you, it is only because you refuse to understand.
Yet you still expect them to kill their own industry and go shopping to Marietta.. Think about that for a while..
They are killing their own industry through simple neglect. (Where is the European 5th generation program? …and don’t say PAK FA) They might as well buy the most capable aircraft available. ( Marietta? The final assembly lines for the F-35 are in Fort Worth, Italy, and Japan)
Current Typhoons were meant to replace F-4F(ICE) and MiG-29 in the A-A role which is their primary role. One day the current fleet of Tornadoes will have to be replaced (advanced Typhoon?), then a part of the current Tranche I (R2 retrofit) fleet could be offloaded to someone else. I did not say Greece but it’s true that Typhoon fits their needs better than F-35.
Advanced Typhoon? Seriously? :stupid:
The only thing that has kept the Eurofighter going this long is the fact that the contracts made it effectively impossible to cancel orders. If Germany flies its Tornadoes to retirement (2025+) there will be zero chance of a Eurofighter line still being in operation.
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