LokeIt is clear that the engine is across between a stop gap and back up for an indiginous engine which is already in development. Whilst the RFP includes the Kaveri it is highly unlikely that it would win the contract, in the end an engine in current series production with proven reliability is the most logical choice. That means F404, RM12, M88 or EJ200. Anything else is illogical and for that matter I would think the RM12 would get counted out fairly quickly as I bet GE can probably offer a better deal with a variant if the F404 IN-20 which fits nicely into their thrust requirements.
Gripen C/D has RM12; Gripen NG will have F414. THe replacement was quite simple due to the similar sizes of the RM12 and F414. My guess is that F414 is also on the list… and would probably be a strong contender, given it’s excellent thrust/price ratio 🙂
Lokedelete — double post
LokeDRFM systems that use superconductor microelectronics do exist:
http://www.hypres.com/pages/new/bnew_files/navair.pdfI read something about Raytheon experimenting with similar systems. I’m sure Thales and MBDA have also done similar research.
Thanks, this is interesting — however it also points to some of the shortcomings of today’s systems. They are talking about a frequency of 50 GigaHertz here — to do the kind of analysis and signal generation that I suggest my guess ist that one would need to be in the TeraHertz range — roughly a factor 1000 faster than what is described here.
That’s what I call a “break-through” in technology… and I believe that would make a big difference in what could be done….
LokeActive cancellation works well in theory. You take a known waveform and frequency and introduce a cancelling signal. But what happens when your adversary suddenly starts using his unknown-to-you “war reserve” radar operating modes and frequencies? Your active cancellation system is now useless.
But then you base your active cancellation on a fixed model it seems; my proposal was to avoid that by continously analyzing the incoming signal. In theory it should be simple; the FFT in combination with several antennas on the a/c should give the needed information on frequencies, phases, and amplitudes. Then it’s just to generate the same frequencies with a phase shift… The opponent may do things like frequency hopping however they do need to spend sufficient time on a specific frequency to allow their system a decent sample on that frequency. Switching to another frequency would be detected instantly by the system which would automatically start to emit on that new frequency. And the “waveform” is also taken care of by the Fourier analysis.
My assumption was that one would develop electronics that was several orders of magnitude faster than what’s out there today. That would require enourmous investments in some “break-through” technology of course. But it would be needed if one wanted to do on-the-fly Fourier analysis of incoming signals in the giga-hertz range and signal generation in real-time of the cancelling signal. It sounds like science fiction however it still may be possible to do.
LokeYes.
It’s called ECM.
With all the interest for VLO a/c not just in the US but also in Israel, the UK, Japan, Russia, India, South Korea, Australia, etc. etc. it seems to me that the “ECM” we’ve got today cannot really be called “active stealth”.
And why would France launch a program to develop “active stealth” if they already got it?
LokeIs the following a reliable source?
(NSI News Source Info) BRASILIA, Brazil – April 26, 2010: Brazil’s government is leaning strongly toward the purchase of French Rafale fighter jets as part of a long-studied procurement due to advantageous technology transfers promised with the offer, Brazilian Defense Minister Nelson Jobim said Wednesday.
Speaking at a hearing in Brazil’s congress, Jobim said the French offer was the only one among three finalists in the bidding process that could guarantee full technology transfer sought by the government.
“This is a political option for the government,” Jobim said.
Jobim said the Defense Ministry would submit a final technical report to Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva within the next 15 days with its recommendations related to the purchase.
LokeRafale is fine if all you want to do is strike fixed targets whose position is well known or Taliban targets where there is no IADS. But Rafale/Storm Shadow becomes useless when faced with mobile targets protected by constantly moving S-300s who are protected by rings of constantly moving Tor-M1s and Pantsyr-S1s. That is where potential adversaries are going, because they know Storm Shadow’s kill chain cannot be completed if they move frequently.
But that is where F-35 shines. It possesses enough stealth to stay out of reach of IADS, yet allows it to place sensors on the moving targets/IADS and kill them with PGMs. Rafales would only be allowed to fly after the F-35s did all the heavy lifting.
I think you are right, at least given today’s technology (and today’s Spectra).
One question remains though; Would it be technically feasible to develop “active stealth” to such a level that it could actually “hide” an a/c from the radars as effectively as passive stealth?
It seems the French believe the answer is yes; some announcements recently seemed to indiate that they are going to invest a lot in “active stealth”. AFAIK nobody has done that before.
The ultimate active stealth would be active cancellation. This works for sound however the frequencies are much much lower. From a theoretical POV could the following work:
1. FFT of the incoming signals
3. Feed into a model that takes into account the physical attributes of the a/c; with parameters that depend on the exact load-out (e.g. if a drop tank is on one particular station, parameter settings in the model reflect that fact)
3. On the basis of the incoming signals and the model, generate new signals, with the same amplitude of incoming, but out-of-phase.
4. emit from antennas distributed around the a/c
5. back to 1
For high frequencies todays electronics is simply too slow to do the above. However it may be possible to develop faster circuits, my guess is that they would have to operate in the high TeraHerz range to be able to deal with Giga-herz signals (and you also need some parallellism on top of that).
The investments required would probably be enormous — OTOH the industrial spin-offs could also become enormous — such break-through technology would beat anything Intel, IBM or any other company got in their pipelines…
Some time ago I suggested this as a possible strategy for Gripen NG to become stealthy; Norway is one of the few countries that actually got cash to pay for such a crazy adventure. Even a partial failure (i.e. not complete stealth) could still become a commercial success if one could develop such ultra-rapid computers.
Passive VLO seems “simpler” and much more reliable; however the commercial opportunities from passive VLO seem insignificant in comparison to what an “active cancellation” adventure could lead to.
I tend to agree though that France hardly would be willing to spend the cash needed to develop such ultrarapid electronics, and that their “active stealth” will probably suffer from that. Although I could be wrong.
(To get an idea of what would be needed in terms of money, check the R&D budgets for companies like Intel and IBM…)
LokeThe closest analogy to the Gripen NG development would be the Hornet-> SH development, AFAIK one of the few (or the only?) recent military aviation development program that delivered on time and on budget.
The NG development may be even less invasive than the SH development. Gripen was designed to grow.
With few unknowns it’s much simpler to make predictions.
LokeOne year ago…
Current economic conditions could force the Brazilian Air Force to redefine and delay the FX-2 contract decision, with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter potentially re-emerging as a viable competitor, a senior Lockheed executive tells FlightGlobal.com
LokeLauren is the female name.
Thanks for the clarification.
Well this story clearly looks a bit “biased” but on the other hand; the F-35 program seems to be in much less trouble than any other recent BIG military program that I can think of. It’s delayed of course but not too much.
I am actually more optimistic now than I was earlier this year 🙂
They have now 6 a/c flying, 175 flights have been performed, and more test a/c are being built so testing will ramp up soon. Delayed? Yes of course. But disaster? I think not. Although I could be wrong.
One thing that I am wondering about though is if LM will be able to produce the F-35 as fast as they claim. I don’t doubt they will be able to assemble the a/c very quickly, however what I am wondering is, will the subcontractors be able to keep up? Will P&W be able to deliver one complete and fully tested F135 a day, for instance?
LokeMr. Thomson has officially become a new Dr.Kopp 😉
OT: I thought “Loren” was a female name? Or am I wrong?
Lokeobviously not, but I have a little problem with that claim… what fuel one uses depends on the engine technology… now, when did boeing last build an engine?
If it was PW or GE who said that, it could sound logical, but from boeing, I have trouble seeing what they could do about it
:confused: It’s all over the place, see e.g.
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04/navy-converts-biofuel-into-noise-to-celebrate-earth-day/
They are already testing it.
Could a combination of sales of 200 super tucanos and promise to develop biofuel help the SH win this!? Will Dassault experience another Marocco?
The Americans often keep quiet however they always work in the background and should never be underestimated. My latest guesswork on the chances of winning:
Rafale 60%
SH 20%
NG 20%
LokeCampaigning to be chosen supplier of fighter aircraft to FAB (Brazilian Air Force), the U.S. aircraft maker Boeing said on Thursday (22) that want to partner with Brazil for biofuel use in fighter jets if your F/A-18 Super Hornet is the winner of the FX-2 project, which aims to renew the fleet of fighter jets from Brazil. Besides the U.S. company, the French Rafale and Swedish Saab compete to sell 36 jet fighters to Brazil.
The Americans seems to have not given up yet!
LokeGripen Nervous About Ferrying Demo Aircraft To India, But Confident Of Repeat Performance In MMRCA Trials
The Indian Air Force evaluation team that was in Europe for phase-3 flight evaluation trials (FETs) of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Gripen Demo was stranded on the continent by the Icelandic ash cloud. Not sure if they’re back yet, but they had a fantastic time in Linkoping, Sweden, during the first week of this month when a member of the IAF team became the first non-Swedish pilot to fly the Gripen Demo from the front cockpit. The team had eight flights in the aicraft, and will fly it again next month. The Gripen Demo will touch down in Jamnagar on May 17, after which the IAF will decide the sequence of trials the airplane will be put through.
While the Gripen people are still basking in the rumours and feedback about how well their pair of Gripen-Ds performed during the India phase of the evaluations, the team is palpably nervous about ferrying the Gripen Demo to India. Met up with Gripen’s MMRCA campaign head Eddy de la Motte a couple of days ago. He told me, “While we are very confident that the Demo will perform perfectly in what is demanded of it, we hope there are no problems in bringing it to India. We will be hopping it across from Sweden to India. We don’t foresee any problems, but it is after all a prototype, and we can’t be too careful.” The IAF is likely to put the Gripen Demo through the full gamut of trials in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh, though probably not in that order. In many ways, evaluating the Gripen Demo will be like testing an entirely different airplane, substantively different as it is from the original that flew in India last month.
The first down-select in the MMRCA is scheduled to take place by October this year.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/saab-nervous-about-ferrying-demo.html
This must be nerve-wracking for Saab — sending their only NG Demo, which is still a prototype, all the way to India and then back.
LokeI will certainly not accept that bet.
Perhaps the Thales AESA has progressed further than the Saab/Selex; I do not know, and I don’t care much. However I strongly doubt that the difference is “four years” as some claim.
That’s perhaps a bet I could consider: “if RBE2 AESA is launched on a production Rafale 4 years or more before the Gripen or Typhoon AESA I will — hmmm leave this board”
:diablo:
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