I did astronomy and therefore spherical trig at university, but the tables are indeed mind boggling. I take my hat off to the navigators. Too bad those days are gone.:)
May I tell you I was a very relieved bunny when I was shoved into the nightfighter world and discovered that the Air Mystery had failed to specify astrodomes in their night fighters.
Ralph, Hi,
If the document was published by ‘Her Majesty’s Stationery Office’ (HMSO in them days!) then it was available to both the military and civilians. The military (mainly the RAF) got their copies “free” from No 1 AIDU (Air Information Documentation Unit?) at RAF Northolt. Civilian operators could buy such volumes as they might need on the open market from one of the HMSO commercial outlets. If it had been an ‘RAF only’ document then the likelihood is that it would have been an Air Ministry (or MoD) document.
Whilst I understand the physics behind astro-nav, I regret to have to admit that the maths are beyond me (or were, before computers!!)
HTH
Resmoroh
Never mind Resmoroh. We were taught all this at nav school and told it was spherical trigonometry. It was all absolutely and totally beyond my General School Cert maths. I could however fumble through the fancy tables, I think we had to carry the Air Almanac and the sight reduction tables, and even produce a position line in roughly the right place. We were allowed 20 mins to do a 3 star fix.
I always remember the ribbing one of my colleagues got. We did triangular tracks about 100 miles each leg. His 3 star fix with his tracks on the chart were a very good imitation of the Star of David.
These were for use by navigators using a sextant to obtain position lines fron the sun or stars etc. I thought astro navigation had been forgotten by the late 60s. A three star fix is a fun procedure if anyone has tried it.
Thanks for your answer … I mean the range beyond which you aren’t really aiming or expecting to hit anything with any degree of force. That would be a lesser distance than the maximum potential range.
Your data support what I was thinking about any attempt to “douse searchlights”. :rolleyes:
The old Lee Enfield 303 fired the same round as the RAF Browning. It was supposed to be able to kill at one mile.
We fired them on the range at 1000 yards and, with a well aimed shot, could hit the target. Hosepiping 2 Brownings stood a good chance I guess.
Sounds possible. That’s about 220 knots for the shortest possible route
Bruce will probably know what a Mosquito could cruise at to give a 950 mile range with reserves.
Moggy
Well I never. In an NF36, we did Fayid to Luqa which is circa 1000 nm, in 4 hrs 30, which gives about the same average. Would have used about 400 galls out of about 550, so there was still plenty to go. It was normal to do a fuel check every hour on longer trips and at cruise would generally return 96 galls per hour. Damned if I can remember what height or revs, although revs were most likely about 2450. Hell its over 56 years ago and my memory is shot to pieces
As an aside ISTR there was a proposal to strip the turrets from Lancs, fly them at max cruise, 2650 revs, and get something close to a four engine Mossie. The criminal thing was the pilots were instructed to stooge along on quite low revs, possibly 2250, for the sake of fuel economy, we had bean counters even then. I realise there is a tradeoff between bomb load and fuel load. What was the Lancastrian capable of ?
I believe Mossies were flown at higher revs, I can remember talking to a nav who claimed Berlin and back in 4 hrs 15 mins.
I started on the Mosquito NF36 and after about 18 months progressed to the Meteor NF13 still with AI Mk10, left that squadron August 1954 to progress ? to Meteor NF12s and 14s with the not much better AI Mk 21 (AN/APS 57)
Speaking as a nav/rad, who extremely fortunatly for me, served after the war, I’ll add my twopennorth.
We were taught on AI Mk 10 as used in the later stages of the war, and were taught head on interceptions. however this entailed turning through about 210 degrees at a range of about 5 miles, hoping to fall in just behind the target at about half a mile range. A very hit and miss procedure as too early a turn would bring you ahead of the target, and in any event the target was lost from the tubes until the final stages of the turn, if then.
So a front gunner would never see us, but in a busy bomber stream this would be a most unsafe procedure.
Interceptions were generally practised at 90 degree crossing, which was what the GCI attempted to set up. Properly carried out one approached in roughly a curve of pursuit but generally ending up about 1000 feet behind the target.
ISTR in the Suez Canal Zone seeing part of an aircraft used in the wall of a dwelling, after having been beaten flat. The locals would scrounge anything.
Many thanks Tim for these very evocative photos. It is wonderful to hear direct from the horses mouth, and even better through his eyes.
Only landed there once, March ’56, don’t remember why, possibly a weather diversion. What I really remember was that it was the premier night fighter aerodrome and I pleaded to be posted there when we were offered a choice of what we wanted to do when I came home from Egypt.
There was a story went round when I was learning that new people posted to WM were queried as to whether they were virgins ( this was the ’50s remember !). If they admitted to this they were fixed up one Saturday with a suitable lady and escorted and supervised to ensure the necessary experience was gained.
And I wonder how many have bothered to read the actual truth behind the myths. How the headline grabbers overshadowed the skilled .And it was not just Sir Keith Park who was sidelined for many years.Such as Auchinleck who was replaced by Montgomery, because he dared to stand up to Churchill.
Ah, bull**** baffles brains!
Interesting to see that a significant proportion of todays yoof thought that Adolf Hitler was the coach of the German football team.
That is a fascinating site. Excellent for planning a walk, let alone worry about runways going up and down. Let the drivers do the worrying LOL
BEST
Difficult, but I’ll put three together.
On 39 in Egypt, the powers that be were concerned that the W—Sorry Egyptian Air Force would try sneak low levels attck on us. So some extra ground radar sets were installed and we had the job of flying low level set routes to calibrate them. The squadron was short of navs, as usual, and I was a confident low level nav (some would say over confident). The joy was we were allowed to fly as low as we liked and I did three, totalling 2.05 in one morning, each with a different pilot.
An instance springs to mind, one route crossed the Suez Cairo road and then straight over the Jebel Ataqa. We saw a big road tanker going along this road and I was sure I was looking straight into his windscreen. We then had to climb like mad to clear the Jebel, all the way up I could still see the ridge above the pilots head, but we just made it, to drop down a gulley on the other side.
WORST
Again difficult
On 152 at Whatashame the squadron took part in a BoB display. the task was simple, 12 aircraft formation take off in pairs, and “stream” landing. The object of a stream landing was to finish with all 12 aircraft, still in motion, on the runway at once.
I was flying with one of the keen young Fg Offs at No.2 to the CO, and he was determined to do his bit. Luckily this was only the rehearsal, on the day before the big event. Mr Keen kept too close turning finals when the boss was going as slow as he could to allow everyone to bunch up. Result we hit the slipstream whilst almost at touchdown. I watched the grass hurtling past the wingtip so close I couldn’t see it and really thought we’d had it. However a big handful of power and a jerk on the stick and we were bang on the runway. However that had put our speed up and we went sailing past the boss — BIG NO NO
Still he got it right next day and it all went well.
Many thanks for all the replies so far.
I have managed to unearth some interesting diagrams and photos here:
http://www.milfield.org.uk/fighter_leader_school_milfield.htm
Anyone know from which publication the target drawings, Martinet photos and Martinet cutaway diagram originate? I’ve e-mailed the site’s owner, but just in case I get no reply, thought I’d ask here too. Perhaps a bit of a a long shot, but you never know!
Regards
Simon
Many thanks for that fascinating link