CoachTwo things are confused here: Yes, the USAF is thinking about a new bomber which might or might not be supersonic, often referred to as LRSA, Long Range Strike Aircraft. See http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/512-12026.asp
What we talk about here is a test aircraft built by Northrop Grumman, see
CoachCoachjust to remeber . . .
…that we already had 2 other threads before about 3 engined fighters. Using the search function, you’ll find
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=46569
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17159&highlight=Trident
CoachCould it be what was called
“Designs currently on the table include a M2.0 bomber, manned or unmanned, 43 m long with advanced stealth features and capable of carrying a 20,000 lb weapons load.”
in the article
Soaring ambitions – Future of Offensive Air Syetems 6/22/2005 5:16:08 AM
JANE’S DEFENCE WEEKLY | 15 Jun 05 | Nick Cook
found here: http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/512-12026.asp
??
CoachP. 16
A swiss contribution, the P. 16, an ancestor of the Learjet
for more information, in german see
http://www.luftfahrt.ch/ais/konstruktionen/ffa/p16.html
or in english
CoachF-24 an UCAV ?
From the book “ROBOT WARRIORS” by Hugh McDaid & David Oliver
first published in 1997, ISBN 0 75281 024 3
THE A-12 MYSTERY AND THE F-24 DELTA
The most likely configuration of the F-24 is that of a flying wing delta, the aerodynamics of which are derived from the cancelled General Dynamics (now part of Lockheed Martin)/McDonnell Douglas A 12 Avenger ll. This was a subsonic highly stealthy strike aircraft aimed at replacing both the US Navy A-6 Intruders and the USAF F-111s. The A-12 was cancelled in 1991 allegedly because of cost over runs and the reduction in tension caused by the end of the Gold War and the break-up of the Soviet Union. Although at least $2 billion, and perhaps as much as $4 billion, was spent on the A-12, little hardware has been seen for the money.
With such an exotic aerodynamic design as the A-12, it would be usual for a half-scale flying version to be used for testing the flight characteristics. 1 believe that this vehicle was produced and flown by the McDonnell Douglas ‘Phantom Works‘ (a ‘Skunk Works‘ type organization) who were also responsible for the
X-36. Flight testing of this unmanned mini A-12 apparently demonstrated an amazing capability in the area of stealth, speed and endurance. It is believed that in 1990, McDonnell Douglas, with its Wild Weasel experience, proposed to the USAF a relatively low cost programme (similar to the X-36) to explore an unmanned replacement for the elderly F-4G. A few million dollars were found to continue the development. The SAM busting experiences of Desert Storm in 1991 increased the flow of money and more extensive secret facilities were made available. With the movement of the F 117 Stealth fighters from Tonopah to Holloman in June 1992, the small, mostly contractor manned, UCAV unit moved in to Tonopah — the most secure air base in the world. Additional money was siphoned from the F-117 budget and the development testing began in earnest.
This UCAV, which we will refer to as the F-24 Delta, is approximately 25 feet in span and powered by a single, non-after burning General Electric F-404 of 10,600 Ibs thrust. lt has a relatively small internal centre-line weapons bay.
This aircraft has an operational radius of approximately 600—700 miles so a considerable amount of internal fuel is required; the flying wing design provides the volume for such needs. The long range aspect of the aircraft is required to support deep strike missions, such as during Desert Storm, without the need to refuel in air. The endurance needs to be enough to ensure that the UCAV F-24 can be first into the target area and last out. A typical mission profile might be as follows:
Operating from a secure section of militarybase the UCAVs take off as soon as it is dark.
Once the super stealthy F-24s are in a ‘SAM rich‘ zone, a strike package, made up of unmanned decoys, is launched.
As a result, the SAM sites turn on their radars.
The F-24 UCAVs move in close for the kill while exchanging secure messages as to their chosen target with each other and the virtual pilot, located either on the ground or in a command aircraft such as an AWACS.
Passive electro-optical sensors confirm the target, the virtual pilot signs off on the weapons release and a small, maybe 100 Ib, laser guided bomb destroys the target. Ten or twelve of such weapons could be carried internally, giving considerable combat persistence
Once the SAM sites realize that they are being targeted, they are likely to shut down, and move if they arc mobile, thus hoping to escape the notice of their invisible nemesis. In this event, using its electro-optical sensors in conjunction with information from systems such as J-STARS, the F-24 can autonomously hunt for likely SAM sites, sending back imagery to the virtual pilot only when it thinks it has a likely target.
It is interesting to note that the USAF in a recent interview said that UCAVs could be available to field by 2007 and that the Israelis arc talking about having UCAVs within the next generation. With such confident statements being made, much of the initial work must have already been done!
The original A-12 was also due to have an undisclosed air-to-air capability so these aircraft, although probably subsonic, could be used to test out tactics and technologies that might be used in super-cruise unmanned fighters. Indeed Lockheed Martin arc openly discussing the possibility of pilots in their new F-22 Raptor superfighter, controlling three or four unmanned UCAVs. These would fly 50—1 00 miles in advance of manned aircraft and perform the initial missile exchange, leaving the manned aircraft to mop up the remnants of the enemy.
There is rumoured to be a British connection with the UCAV but typical British secrecy means that this cannot be confirmed.
For those who ask why this project is being kept so secret, the answer may lie in the area of arms reduction treaties. It appears that a UCAV may be classified as a cruise missile and therefore be subject to verifications and limits, or it may mean re negotiating treaties. Much better to keep it secret.
CoachAURORA the book
before we end up in endless discussions about AURORA again, buy the book by Bill Sweetman (see attached pic) or, if you can’t found it anymore, read it online, here:
CoachI finally read the article (my copy gets here late..) and I’m impressed. They make a good case for it existing.
On the other hand, it would be very hard to keep a program that large a secret.
Does anyone have photos of the modified C-5s mentioned?AWST has a very good track record…though recently in an obit for a former editor-in-chief they admitted they sometimnes get things wrong, like a 1958 story on a Soviet nuclear-powered bomber. I’ve been reading AW&ST since I was 10 (dad used to bring home copies for me from work) and they’ve been right far more than they’ve been wrong.
It’s a stong case, and a story I hope is true. Not necessarily foir any military value, but as proof that the American aerospace industry can work togther to do the “impossible” in record time. Just like they did in WWII.
Two C-5As were modified for NASA to carry space shuttle payload bay container cargoes, and were given the new designation of “C-5C”. They are also known as the “Space Container Transport System (SCTS)”, “Space Container Modifications (SCM)”, “SCM Birds”, or “Scum Birds”. They are flown by Air Force crews but under NASA’s operational control, and the USAF has to ask NASA for permission to use them for non-NASA-related missions. They are also rumored to be used for ferrying top-secret car-goes to isolated bases for testing, but of course the government has no comment on such matters.
from http://www.vectorsite.net/avc5.html
and the attached pictures, from http://www.aerofiles.com/lock-c5c.jpg
Coachhow it al begun…
for the younger of you all, here the article from
AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGIE August 24, 1992
Recent Sightings of XB-70-Like Aircraft Reinforce 1990 Reports From Edwards Area
WILLIAM B. SCOTT/LANCASTER, CALIF
A large aircraft having a platform reminiscent of the Air Force/North American XB-70 supersonic bomber of the 1960s has been seen flying on the U. S. East and West coasts over the last two years.
Two recent detailed reports of large, light-colored, XB-70-like aircraft—one in Georgia and the other in California‘s Mojave Desert—provided new data that rein force past sightings near Edwards AFB, Calif. Since September, 1990, residents of Mojave, Calif., and workers at Edwards AFB have seen a large, delta-shaped, light-colored aircraft flying in the area. A total of five separate sightings of this vehicle has been reported to AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY.
Observers said they first saw a large, primarily delta-shaped aircraft at night during the Summer of 1990. On Sept. 13, 1990, and Oct. 3, 1990, the same type of aircraft was seen flying near Mojave, Calif., in the late evening. Mojave is about 16 naut. mi. northwest of Edwards AFB.
The dusk sightings yielded descriptions and sketches of the aircraft planform, nose and main landing gear door locations, leading edge tile-like patterns, and lighting layouts. Observers consistently reported a red light beneath the nose, amber lights near the delta‘s wingtips, and a white light between the main gear doors. Engine noise associated with the aircraft seen on Sept. 19 was described as a low-pitched rumble. However, noise from two chase aircraft—one was an F-16, the other was not identified—may have combined with that of the large aircraft, distorting the latter‘s sound. Afterburner flames from twin exhaust ports located under the wing trailing edge and immediately outboard of the aircraft centerline were reported during the Oct. 3 sighting.
CLUES ABOUT POSSIBLE MISSION
A similar aircraft was seen in April, 1991, at about 11 a. m., flying north of Edwards AFB at an estimated altitude of 5,000- 10,000 ft. An observer said it was large— dwarfing an F- 16 chasing it—and was light-colored, possibly white.
Independent sightings this year pro duced detailed sketches that correlate well with earlier ones and provide additional clues about the aircraft‘s possible mission. The first sighting this year was near Atlanta, Ga., on May 10. Glenn Emery, now a writer associated with Cable News Network, said a large, unidentified air craft was flying eastbound at about 5 p. m. Because its size was unknown, its altitude was difficult to judge, but was estimated to be 10,000-15,000 ft. The vehicle was clearly higher and faster than airline traffic descending for landing at Hartsfield Atlanta International Airport. lt was not leaving a contrail.
He described the aircraft‘s planform as large, somewhat like an XB-70, but with a large forward wing or canard. Its dual engines were- “extremely noisy,“ producing a deep-pitched, periodic beating sound, he said. Suggestions that he had seen the British Aerospace Concorde or a Beech Starship were discounted by Emery, who said the shape, size and sound were inconsistent with either of those aircraft.
Another sighting, on July 12 at 11:45 p. m., occurred near a Lockheed-operated radar cross section (RCS) test range in the Mojave Desert. Described as an “XB 70-like“ shape, the aircraft turned its landing lights on while at fairly high altitude, then descended quickly, following an S-pattern flight track. lt made a final turn at about 200 ft. above a road, crossing less than a mile in front of a motorist who had watched it descend. Ambient noise masked any sounds from the air craft.
Bright moonlight illuminated the air craft‘s upper surfaces, giving the observer a good look at the planform during the turn. The aircraft rolled out, presenting a side view as it descended and landed at a private Helendale airport adjacent to the Lockheed RCS test facility.
Located about 15 naut. mi. southwest of Barstow, Calif., Helendale Airfield‘s three runways are shown as closed to civil pilots on current aeronautical charts. However, Lockheed aircraft still land there when shuttling personnel between its Burbank site and the RCS facility.
Although weather was clear and calm at the Helendale field that night, severe thunderstorms were reported in the Las Vegas area and throughout the highly classified range complexes in central Nevada.
Based on observer reports, this unidentified aircraft‘s features include:
• Large size; estimated to be dose to 200 ft. in length. Observers near Edwards
AFB said the vehicle “dwarfed“ F-16 chase aircraft.
• A large aft section with a clipped-delta planform. A narrower, blended fuselage extends from the delta‘s vertex forward to a clear-canopied cockpit and sharp nose. The main delta section has a prominent, raised spine along the top centerline. Up ward-canted vertical fins rise at each out board tip of the delta planform.
• A prominent dark line extending longitudinaily along part of the aft raised section. At the aft end of the line, just ahead of the trailing edge and between the engine nozzles, a broken visual pattern was seen, but observers could not describe it.
• A forward wing or canard of fairly long span. The canard, possibly used only
for takeoff, landing and slow-speed regimes, may pivot or sweep aft for internal stowage during high-speed flight. (Some observers reported a dominant canard, while others did not recall seeing one, suggesting it can be stowed.)
• Dual rectangular engine exhaust nozzles at the aircraft‘s trailing edge.
• Light-colored top and bottom surfaces, with dark leading and trailing edges.
Although the propulsion System type is unknown, observers have reported hearing a “very loud, low-pitched roar“ with a rhythmic beat to it. They did not hear a series of detonations, which have been associated with high-speed “pulser“ vehicles that create “donuts-on-a-rope“ contrails (Aw&sT May 11, p. 62). 0
Coachfightingirish
In the 90’s a british aviation magazine (AFM March 95/97???) wrote that a secret military aircraft (ASTRA?) was loaded into a C-5 at Boscombe Down. I attached a scanned pic from that issue, which somebody posted, when I came to this forum nearly 2 years ago.
That article showed also concepts of a variant of the YF-23.
People who made a clear picture /description could win a price or even money.
Maybe the “Blackstar” is so long searched aircraft!
to fightingirish
this pic was in AFM March 1997, and the article was named “The Truth is Out”. The aircraft mentioned there was called ASTRA or A-17. Its colour was described as black or dark grey, and the technology it is based on seemed to be from the YF-23, so it would be far less advanced the XOV.
CoachI fully agree with Badger1968 “Patents do NOT mean that something has deen actually built… or even “designed”!”, but anyway they tell us a lot about what a company intends to build.
eg. Lockheed holds a patent for a “Pulse detonation cluster engine”, no 6,439,503, see
http://www.desertsecrets.com/6,439,503.txt
and have you seen this:
CoachI think this stunt is more a show, and as such, proves how desperate Russia needs money for its airforce. Would be interesting to know how much they are paid for…
As for precise flying, to touch down in the middle of a runway means you have to be within plus/minus 5 meters. This – if the hole is 57m wide and a Flanker has a span of some 15 m – would still leave at least 16 m on your side.
What would cause me more sorrow are the local winds, gusts and turbulences!
CoachCorrected Pic
here a scan from an advertisement in the german Flugrevue (issue march 06), where the 2 bombs have ben moved forward
CoachBoeing 767 near Hongkong International Airport
found this Boeing flying near Honkong, but what irritates me is the “gostplane” on the right, or to be more precise, the light-blue color of it. What’s this? The aircraft’s shadow should be something like black…
CoachA good site. although in french, for all kind of prototypes and experimental aircraft is
Here some of my favorites:
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