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pagen01

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Viewing 15 posts - 2,341 through 2,355 (of 9,672 total)
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  • in reply to: Prototype to Production difficulties. #1040123
    pagen01
    Participant

    Prototype to production failures really come down to two things, either the aircraft is a dog and it can’t fettled, or the prevailing conditions have changed so much that the aircraft is no longer suitable for what it was designed for.
    So often the latter is the case but the aircraft gets blamed, Blenheim, Battle, Wyvern, and dare I say it Helldiver are all part of that.
    Blenheim and Battle were seen as the best aircraft of their class to enter RAF service in the late expansion period, but were thouroughly outclassed when it came to the war. After initail success the same could be levelled at the Stuka, certainly in its primary role.
    The Helldiver reflected a determination by Curtiss to follow an outdated idea by the US Navy for a large dive bomber, Vought Vindicator/Chesapeake similar.
    Wyvern was dogged by RAF and Navy indecision which stretched out its procurement, only then to be at the mercy of some pretty unreliable powerplants, not sure there was much wrong with the basic concept or airframe.

    So far I don’t think we have mentioned many howlers of aircraft design (Swift, Botha, Lerwick aside) where no matter how much work was done on them by research bodies and the services they still were dangerous or otherwise unsuitable for task.
    The aforementioned Javelin is a good point, as it did take several marks to get it near to the standard originally specified, and even then the RAF didn’t get its supersonic all weather fighter.

    Meanwhile, despite the Supermarine acolyte view, a more balanced reading sees Supermarine as very good and very lucky with Spitfire design and that odd, but remarkably (and unforeseen) ‘stretchable’ and effective wing.

    Interesting point that, if you ask someone to name a British aircraft company renowned for its fighters, chances are they would name Supermarine, yet they only produced the one (admittedly outstanding) successful fighter design.
    I’m not sure what you mean about Hawker using better stressed skin construction than Supermarine point though James? Supermarine were the first out of the two to use it and both had a good enough quality of construction and understanding of aerodynamics, certainly from a usable service aircraft point of view.
    I still say that not withstanding that the Spitfire represents a remarkable prototype to production achievement, the prototype itself was modified to almost spitfire Mk.I standard, in photographs of it in camo it is barely indistinguishable from its earliest form.

    in reply to: Aircraft serial nos WR 977 #1040244
    pagen01
    Participant

    I did try searching aircraft serial WR977 without any luck 😮

    eh, at least the five first pages (gave up after that!) of searches of ‘WR977’ come up with nothing but Avro Shackleton WR977, usually followed by Newark, and museum.

    Mind you it can give rise to an intresting (!!) thread by asking here first:)

    in reply to: Aircraft serial nos WR 977 #1040445
    pagen01
    Participant

    Would ‘LANGKR’ be a poorly-written “Langar” then?

    Yep, Avro’s facility at Langar was where Shackleton modification (notably Mk.3 ph.III) & upgrades etc were conducted.
    I’m sure T/O will be keen to see these switches!

    in reply to: Air to air with a Spitfire over Kent #495876
    pagen01
    Participant

    Stunning, and not just because you’ve managed an air to air with a Spitfire, some of the shots are genuinely different to what I normally see and nice to see some more distant and atmospheric shots included!:)
    Whats the device on the port wing, just ahead of the trailing edge?

    in reply to: Prototype to Production difficulties. #1040773
    pagen01
    Participant

    Swift.

    That’s an interesting one, it strikes me as one of those aircraft that should have had more changes from prototype to production aircraft.
    The two 541s were very similar to the initial production Swifts, and most of the development seems to have been carried out on production and service aircraft, six different major variants in just four years, about 200 aircraft built, with very few seeing proper service.
    The Hunter seems to have been developed more at the prototypes stage, though it had its fair share of development problems.

    I’m not sure that the Avro Tudor mentioned earlier had a prototype as such, the first one was the same as the others of its type number, with again a whole raft of production variants built in very limited numbers.
    Some types such as the Argosy were production aircraft right from the start, with no development prototype as such.

    My reading is that prototypes will always be different to production aircraft, almost by necessity.

    I get entirely what JDK says above, in a way it makes the Spitfire design even more remarkable that it was at the leading edge of construction and aerodynamic techniques, and yet the basic prototype could be completely reworked by a production designer to be in front-line service just over two years after its first flight is incredible – while the Spitfire I still managed to superficially appear like the prototype.

    Turning the question on its head, does anyone know of a prototype that required very few changes before entering major production? Mustang perhaps?

    in reply to: Prototype to Production difficulties. #1040938
    pagen01
    Participant

    P.1A (to an experimental spec) first flight March 1954, first P.1B (Lighting fighter proto) ff April ’57, service entry December 1959, about half the time from first flight to service entry than the Vixen.

    in reply to: RAF St Eval question #1040947
    pagen01
    Participant

    Thanks flat12, that is a section of the whole photograph that I worked from to establish the locations, they should be pretty exact as I have traced over the actual locations.

    There appears to have been about eight Blisters at various times, including one which was relocated to the domestic site and used as the station theatre!

    in reply to: Prototype to Production difficulties. #1041093
    pagen01
    Participant

    DH.110 to Sea Vixen springs to mind for me.
    And not because of any problems with the aircraft as such, design started in earnest in 1947, first flight Sept ’51, a forecast service entry date of 1953 – actually entered service in 1959.
    But it really was a victim of political and service indecision, the Navy pulled out first in 1949 thinking that the Sea Venom will see it right for a while, then the RAF choose the performance inferior Javelin for its needs.
    The Navy was persuaded in mid 1953 that the 116 ‘Super Venom’ requirement should be met by the DH.110 as the Mk.20X, first flight 1955.
    The DH.110 prototypes were great aircraft, always being acknowledged as such by inspections etc, however technology had completely changed and changing a cannon equipped night fighter into a carrierborne, fully integrated weapon and armament systems, and missile armed all weather fighter was a long slog.
    The RN got its first Sea Vixens in July 1959, it was very different machine to how it started out.
    looked at in very simple terms did any other major production aircraft have that long a development period?

    I think some projects were a victim of their times, especially when you consider the huge changes in technology that some had to endure and their constructors tried to keep up with.

    Some aircraft probably shouldn’t have ever got beyond prototype stage no matter how many times it was modified, the Blackburn Botha springs to mind.
    The Fairey Barracuda, and to a lesser extent Firefly, was also troubled in prototype form.

    Types such as the Spitfire and Hurricane always amaze me at how relatively quickly they went into production with few obvious changes.

    Having said all that I’m always staggered at the gestation period of current combat aircraft, even with all the knowledge and technology at the disposal of the manufacturers.

    in reply to: Vintage Portugal #1041306
    pagen01
    Participant

    Thanks for sharing the great pics, I assume the climate is fairly kind when it comes to corrosion problems etc?
    I would love to see a P2V-5 displayed in the UK as a Neptune MR.1!

    in reply to: General Discussion #287835
    pagen01
    Participant

    I’m getting this again today, as per my post #6.
    Other forums and pages loading fine in comparison.

    in reply to: Forum go slow? #1872237
    pagen01
    Participant

    I’m getting this again today, as per my post #6.
    Other forums and pages loading fine in comparison.

    in reply to: RAF St Eval question #1041457
    pagen01
    Participant

    It is often forgotten that St Eval was a Fighter Command sector station for 10 Group for a while from June 1940, squadrons based were, No 222 from 18 June, No 236 from 8 August, No 238 Squadron from 14 August. Spitfires, Hurricanes, Blenheims were used.
    To this end ‘E’ type fighter blast pens were built to protect the aircraft, these also housed a stanton shelter and two escape ways in the rear middle sections. Going off aerial photos and scalling them against the runway, these pens appear to have been the larger twin engined ‘Blenheim’ type, of about 150ft across.

    When the runways were extended past the original peri track in 1942 some of these pens and trackways were removed, the latter dispersals work eradicated them completely.
    However with prolonged dry weather you can make out the original marks in the ground, and GE earth images below show them up quite well, I have added the E pen location and orientations to them.
    In theory there should be one more pen, as they were usually built in mulitples of six, one of them may have been removed by bombing in the photo I used or maybe it wasn’t built.

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6230/6257164201_f3d1516141_b.jpg
    st eval nw cs by Glassjar, on Flickr

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6237/6257164217_317fc4e962_b.jpg
    st eval nw cc11s by Glassjar, on Flickr

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6100/6257164193_4b66fc137f_b.jpg
    st eval swca by Glassjar, on Flickr

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6051/6257164197_0faa4dc846_b.jpg
    st eval swcs by Glassjar, on Flickr

    There was also an unusual three bay blast pen used for smaller fighter types, this is shown in the last pic, blister hangars have been anotated in grey.

    The E pens would have looked like these at Perranporth, you can see the personnel escape openings, the second shot shows the stanton shelter within, and the last shot the rear exit way.

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6110/6257292119_e0d99fd1f8_b.jpg
    pen1 by Glassjar, on Flickr

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6107/6257291857_994f104232_b.jpg
    E pen shelter by Glassjar, on Flickr

    http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6230/6257821554_91b58f701d_b.jpg
    e pen exit by Glassjar, on Flickr

    in reply to: Very Heavy Bombers in the ETO. #1041594
    pagen01
    Participant

    I’ve been looking into ‘Very Heavy’ for a while, mainly due to the St Mawgan connection.

    No where can I find reference to a specific type of very heavy bomber or transport that was percieved in 1943 to requir a special base for it as such. The only type I can find is the B-36, but then I can’t find evidence of UK bases being required for it at that time.

    I don’t know about Langford Lodge but the four Very Heavy Bomber stations Sculthorpe, West Raynham, Marham, & Lakenheath were all being completed in 1945 with 6,000ft (later three would have one 9,000 ft runways, due to USAF Jet bombers – but unrelated).
    All were in East Anglia, so threat from enemy bombing must have been considered very low, to non existant by then.
    St Mawgan had a 9,000 x 300ft runway built in ’43 (and a longer one planned), but there wasn’t a transport aircraft envisaged that required that size, it was required to move many aircraft (16,000 a year, 169 recorded on one day) on long dstance ferrying and delivery flights though.
    All these stations had more dispersals (of standard size) than normal and better taxitracks from the runway, coupled with the runway size this lends credence to many aircraft movements being the driving factor of their designed layout, not aircraft size as such.

    I do get that designs, such as the B-29 & Windsor, were getting bigger and heavier but not to a degree that required much bigger runways then already being planned and built.
    Bigger runways were designed to get more aircraft down in a shorter time, witness the monster wartime diversion runways, 750ft x 9,000ft, at RAF Carnaby, Mantson, and Woodbridge that were designed to land formations of returning diverted bombers in streams and get them of into parking areas as quickly as possible.

    Personally I can only assume that the Very Heavy Bomber/Transport idea was a single scheme, but my hunch is it referred to frequency of movements and action than to especially heavy aircraft.

    in reply to: Shackleton WB833, Mull of Kintyre #1041631
    pagen01
    Participant

    I can only second what Phil has said so well, thanks to peope like you the crews lost in these awfull operational & training excercise flights will be remembered properly.
    When we talk of these accidents the human angle can all too often be lost in time or distance from the subject.

    Thanks for taking the time to join the forum and post the information Angie, maybe you will be able to post a picture of the cairn itself sometime.

    in reply to: Landing gear to identify… #1042505
    pagen01
    Participant

    How in the name of sanity did you come up with Whirlwind?!:confused:

Viewing 15 posts - 2,341 through 2,355 (of 9,672 total)