Europe is whole different discussion. I happen to think that we should be actively involved in Europe but at a reduced cost. If we want to change the way the EU is run, we’re better off doing it from the inside. We certainly won’t be able to do it from the outside.
Europeans are better off in a sort-of union of bickering rather than individual states. Look what happened the last time that was the case!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Pewtey
Er…. the economy wasn’t in recession then.

But the poorest are still the poorest! Doesn’t higher VAT hurt the poor most, stifle growth, cost jobs and hurt small business even when the economy is not in recession…..or is that only the case when Labour (for example) are in opposition?

But you said yourself that VAT was at 17.5% for 10 years or whatever. It didn’t hurt seem to stifle the economy then too much did it?

My point is that taxes will have to be raised in the longer term if we are to maintain our current standard of living. Having said that I believe that tax increases at the moment in conjunction with massive cutbacks are endangering the economy. Better to ensure the recovery first. It will make tackling the debt easier.

I would say my reply is far more civil than this in post #39 “The rest of your post should be treated with the contempt it deserves.”

So what was your point about not liking straight talking again?
I try to be civil in my responses but the rant by “Bob” was uncalled for and offensive.

The ONS report effectively means that we as a species are not economically viable. Successive governments have distanced themsleves from what really needs doing. We all have to work longer (as we live longer) and pay more for it. We all want something for nothing and are unwilling to pay for the standard of living we enjoy. In the days of free education we were paying 33% income tax – it is now 20% – that won’t have helped either.

What, just because what he says dosen’t fit in with your way of seeing things, or you just don’t like a bit of straight talking.

Characterizing poorer families as beer swilling, chain smoking Andy Capp types is disengenous and in many ways insulting to those trying to make ends meet in difficult circumstances – nothing to with “straight-talking” at all.

I wonder whether Ed Miliband (or yourself) would like comment on the pain inflicted on the poorest, small businesses and the economy by those eleven years of 17.5% VAT under Labour?

Er…. the economy wasn’t in recession then.

As far as the deficit is concerned, the figures I found show that there has been a National debt since at least 1900, and probably before. It’s the size that matters. It was largest after WW2 and has had peaks and troughs since. It is cuurently at its highest as a percentage of GDP since the mid 1970s.

Yes I know not all lower income families have smokers in them, or quaffers of ale, but you cut your cloth to suit and its easier to say we’ll not have so and so rather than being forced to pay a tax on your income.

As VAT is on fuel, do you think they should just do without that as well? They’re only poor people after all aren’t they?

The rest of your post should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

Ed Miliband must think we’ve all got very short memories; I seem to remember VAT going back up to 17.5% from 15% in January 2010.

Presumably that (proportionally bigger) VAT rise didn’t hit the poorest hardest, threaten the recovery, hurt small businesses or do any of the things that this current (non Labour) VAT rise is supposed to be doing? :rolleyes:

And you must have a shorter memory still. It Labour who reduced VAT to 15% from 17.5% as a temporary measure to stimluate the economy. It was always planned to return to 17.5%. This larger rise to 20% appears, according to Osborne himself, to be permanent. I seem to recall the Conservatives criticizing a planned Labour increase to 18.5% not so long ago.

I would certainly agree that we have sort out what we have, we just disagree on how.

Where I would disagree is in your statement about the health service. My experience is that there has been a massive improvement in the last 10 years or so. Improvements can still be made though. I also have no complaints about the standard and quality of education my daughter is receiving. In this respect, I can only base my opinion on my experience.

The debt had been rising slowly from around 2002 (after falling from 1997 to 2002) as a result of increased spending on health and education (from which we all benefit). It rose much more quickly in 2008 as result of bank bailouts and reduction of tax receipts due to the recession.

There is no doubt that the Tories inherited a large amount of debt but it is debt which is there for a reason and that reason is not economic mismanagement but the saving of the economy from a much worse fate.