EuropeanLHDs?
When are these Australian LHDs going to be in service?
Not sure what to make of this story….yet.
We talked here :
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71584&highlight=BPE
EuropeanPersonally, I just don’t get it???? Just doesn’t make sense……..:confused:
Sorry Scooter,
i’m not english mothertongue.
I meant that I think that Australia needs to train pilots to STOVL operations considering the next Amphibious ship coming soon in the RAAN fleet.
EuropeanIt’s hironic.
If France didn’t quit the common european fighter project (under the pressure of nationalistic Dassault and Snecma) there will be only 1 3d instead of 2 different 3d talking about the same subject ‘Is the french fighter Rafale at the same level of the european fighter Typhoon?’.
😉 :rolleyes:
Please return to the subject. Here is the topic of Rafale (the last french fighter).
I believe that the french fighter Rafale looks beautyful (don’t know if the performance are on the same level…).
PS: Ferrari is Ferrari. Dassault is not a Ferrari.
EuropeanThe FACO will be built in Cameri not Caselle. And it makes a difference if you buy 80, 100 or 121 aircraft. The 18 bln €will not cover future upgrades and acquisitions beyond T3 production.
Cameri is close to Caselle AF base.
There will be no future acquisitions beyond T3 production.
The EFA will be the frontline AA fighter in AMI.
The air-ground fighter will be F-35A.
EuropeanThe Italian budget for 121 Eurofighter is approximately 18 bil. of €, with an unit cost of 150 mil. of €.
It’s an all inclusive. Research quote, development, infrastructures, support, etc. All that is around EFA.
It means that Italy has spent/spending/will spent 18bil. € totally from the start up to the end of the project.
Nothing more in terms of €€€ will be done to the project EFA.
If there will be 120, 100, 80 EFA or whatever the air force (AMI) requires, that is not important for Ministry of Finance and taxpayers.
The next priority is the F-35. Italian F35 in number of 131 and probably also other europeans F-35, such dutch F35, will be assembled in the FACO that LM and Finmeccanica will build in Caselle AF base (near Turin).
The FACO will require a lot of investments (aka bil. €€€), but will give a lot of workshare (so revenues of €€€) during next 30 years.
Now we hope only that the final price of F-35 will not arise too much 🙁
EuropeanReading AW’s Show News I’m always kind of surprised how much attention they give to jet trainers. Seems like this is some huge market the general public is usually unaware off.
And I wouldn’t mind having an M346 as private plane. 🙂
There’s a simply reason.
The new trainer such as M346 can be easily configured as a CAS airplane to support military operation on the ground. They are cheap.
EuropeanRejected long ago.
Option 1: STOVL JSF
Option 2: CTOL JSFOption 3: Typhoon (N)
Option 4: Rafale M
Option 1: STOVL JSF
Option 2: CTOL JSF
Option 3: Typhoon (N)
Option 4: F-18
Option 5: Rafale M
😀
EuropeanTest of Aviation Week
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/paris061907/
Pag. 88-89
😀 😀 😀
Excellent article,
Show Newswriter Fred George wrote:
The M346 is the Ferrari Enzo of military advanced trainers.
Conclusions? If u r planning to be a Rafale, Raptor or Litening II pilot, the M346 is the airplane u should be flying in the training command before u get your wings. Others advanced trainers are more like flying Fiats or Fords.
Hope that the new M346 will get the success that it deserves.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
EuropeanYeaaa, the leaders of AMI (aka Alenia-Finmeccanica) want to give the priority to the F-35.
BTW I think that they will cut 15-20 aircrafts.
May be others partners too are consifdering to reduce the numbers of EF dut to the high costs and cause there other expensive programs.
Italy will have the ungrateful honour to be the first one to cut….
EuropeanSorry Bring,
there’s something wrong on my browser. I’m able to see only 6 pages of 3d. 🙁
So, I’m not able to find it.
EuropeanYou didn’t understand well my friend , but i know very well since i read you i air-defense forum that you have a serious grief against France
Gripen is cheaper and more interesting in may ways for European countries with smaller territory ad tighter budget (maintenance costs , price among others things )
I never spoke about menace , i said that imagine for example , that Taiwan is more interested to buy a F-XX and witness the US Navy still protecting its waters in the area and powerful US compay invest there , besides politicially , strategically , and economically (US will make it cheaper on the long term because they already sell many across the world , the leader ) , it is the absolute best choice for Taiwan , (F-15/16 latest blocks is still very good ) this is just an example , for the people who make decisions , it’s just a choice between two 4.5+ gen planes …
EADS is also French , it’s a company sign of great friendship with our German neighbours , Germano-French or Franco-German company mainly , if you wish , and i hope we’ll do more things together .
UK is highly capable , don’t you kow BAE ? it’s one of the leading companies in Europe if not the biggest … but in the EF , i don’t know , i say that because it’s the German who contributed more , i see you took offence , sorry for this then .
USA doesn’t prevent anything , USA tries its best to sell its material like everyone else , it is a superpower , for countries France or even for Israel , who is one of its strongest allies , it is difficult to sell their anti-missiles and other things , because they have fierce competition of other countries like USA , among others .
I see you want to play on the fact that some American read the forum and want to turn my post’s intention and depict me as anti-American . I am not , sorry , i love the US , and like a majority of French i have a lot of respect for them .
No , they blame the fierce competition in the industry and the fact that politically and economically , France alone has problems to find customers because other greater powers like Russia (gas , oil supplier , very good price , very good material , stability of shipping even for less democratic countries ) or USA ( superpower economically , great influence , best electronics , very good prices etc ..)
Besides , there is no point for some countries to get a Rafale or EF-2000 , when their neighbours oly have 3rd gen planes or a bit more , or if they can get about three or 4 times as may modernized Migs .
I think that once we have the new radar soon ad equip it M-88-3 , it will have very few lacks , but currently , i would say , that it could have a better radar and a bit more power in acceleration to surpass the Typhoon , but differences are so small that i think that F3 standard will be a great success and will probably export a little .
-Absolutely nothing against France. France is a good partner of my country in many projects, especially in naval projects.
– I don’t think Gripen is so much less expensive than Rafale. If a single Rafale costs 50 milions € has reported in the article and as claimed by maker how much does it cost Gripen to justify the price gap?
– You wrote that EADS is french and German. You wrote that Germany (Eads ) created EFA and the others where less involved (Uk, IT and Spain).
Let me understand (Germany+France)=Eads=EFA.
-What’s the 4.5+ generation aircraft?
I continue to don’t understand the reasons cause the 4.5+ gen., cheap, performant Rafale has problems to find customers.
May be cause the real final price, complete of support and Rafale certified Rafale arms (french made missiles), proposed to customers reach more high than the declaired 50 milions bucks?
May be cause it doesn’t support not-french missiles, aka if you want something different to MagicII, but you have your store full of AIM9 You have to pay the integration cause ‘officially’ US missiles are supported but never certified on Rafale?
EuropeanThat is simple , its because the countries that are able to afford it are very few and this market is subject to huge political ad economical pressures on the potential clients by the leading countries/competitor of the industry and the world . Never a country buys a plane on the criteria of his operational capabilities only .
When you buy a F-15 or Su-30 , you also seal strategic , political and economical ties and many more contracts defense related or not , military protection (in the case of Taiwan or Singapour to name a few ) , whereas when Dassault sells a plane , it sells only the plane , there is one reason why Chavez and Ahmadinejad buy Russian or that Turkey and Israel buy American , and it is political and strategical , France cannot compete with the US on this and does’t seek to do it by the way , it is not an economical and political superpower , and as an US ally and Nato member , it doesn’t sell to countries that US doesn’t want to be equipped well , like China , North Korea or Iran for instance , but rather wants to sell a decent amount to make it cheaper for AdA to modernize their Rafale and keep our military independance and sovereignity on the military material we use , which is very important . ( although a lack of sells won’t prevent the program to be highly succesful , the research to be carried ,or the ability to work actively on a 5th generation fighter as Dassault sells many other things , over 7000 planes in its history . )
So France has only a very few potential buyers that could politically afford to equip themselves with something different from US or Russian material , and in Europe , Germany built the Eurofighter (UK , Italy and Spain gave a small contribution too ) , so that takes out customers , and there is also the much cheaper and excellent Swedish Gripen that is very well suited to countries with small territories and tight budget for border defence . in Africa most can’t afford a flight of Rafale , and in South America , they surely prefer the best quality/price of MiGs/Su’s or buy US because it’s their zone of influence since the cold war . In Asia and Middle East , the market is dominated since a long time by the US and Russia too . Eurofighter might sell better , as 4 rich countries will always have more political and economical weight than one country , although they might have to sell 3-4 times more to get the same benefits since 4 countries participated in the design .
If I well understood you meant:
-France is not longer a great power (as China, Usa or Russia), so has less influence, then is less convenient for a customer to buy from a not-great power?
Strange, Gripen was sold to 5 countries and Sweden too is not a great power as USA or China.
-Concurrent (aka USA and Russia) make pressure on customers, so even if Rafale is good an old F-16 will be preferred due to the ‘menace’ of Usa.
-Germany (that means EADS) built Eurofighter. Uk and Italy are not capable to make aircrafts and gave a little contribution to the project.
I suppose that the same has been for the Panavia Tornado project?
-USA doesn’t permit to France to sell weapons or Rafale tecnology to China and other non-democratic countries such as Iran I suppose, so interested customers are not available.
I was watching a video in french where the Rafale test pilot Eric Giraud and Mr. Serge Dassault, they sed the same things.
They blame USA for the bad performance of Rafale in the market.
So, I make another question to Rafale aknowledged and skilled supporters.
What do you think are the lacks of Rafale?
Thanks.
EuropeanInteresting article. The reported price of 50 milions € it seems a cheap price.
I continue to don’t understand why such good (as claimed by french) aircraft had not comercial success :confused:
I’m going to search Rafale video on internet with the test pilot of the article Eric Girard.
EuropeanA question.
-Has Rafale an airbrake rear the canopy like EF?
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