Jungle BoyOtherwise, a sizeable fleet of Midas/Mainstay aircreft is needed urgently. With them older aircraft such as the Mirage 5/50 could be given a new lease of life through the heavy use of military data-links.
Coments?
Hammer
I believe the A-50 Mainstay is not available for export.
If FAV wants a AEW aircraft, they´re going to buy it in China.
FAV has two options in China.
The KJ-2000 mounted in a russian Il-76 or the Y-8 “Balanced Beam” which carries a phased array radar and looks very similar to the Swedish Saab 340 AWACs.
Most likely the KJ-2000 could be bought since it´s going to enter active service in 2007 and uses chinese technology, and very little imported stuff.
The Y-8 “Balanced Beam” suffered a major setback this month when the prototype crashed killing all the 40 people on board, all of them top PLAAF technical people.
Jungle BoyGood, I’m glad Brazil didn’t purchase the 2k after all, it seems that Dassault and Embraer tried too hard to milk the cow at the expense of the FAB…. sad really…
Nic
In the past the french tried to sell the Mirage 2000-5 to Pakistan for nothing less than $ 125 million dollar each, according a pakistani news paper (I believe it was The Observer). Of course this happened when the US embargo was in efect and PAF was looking for something more than chinese-built MiG-21s.
Now who needs Mirages if you can get brand new F-16s.
Jungle BoyI believe this could be the answer.
Looks like MiG production line will remain open for a long time.
India says no to US P-3C Orion aircraft
Rahul Bedi (IANS)
New Delhi, February 4, 2006
In a rare ‘no’ to Washington, the Indian Navy has called off the leasing of two US Navy P-3C Orion maritime reconnaissance aircraft (MRA) on grounds they are too expensive.
The 18-24 months it would take the US Navy to retrofit the two aircraft to the Indian Navy specifications once the lease had been finalised also contributed to New Delhi opting out of the deal.
“The lease (of two P-3C Orions) is timed out. It was expensive and time-consuming,” a senior Indian official associated with the lease negotiations said.
The US Navy is believed to have demanded Rs8 billion for the lease via the foreign military sales programme.
Fear of US sanctions, like the ones imposed following India’s 1998 nuclear tests that led to the Indian Navy’s entire Sea King MK42 fleet being grounded due to a shortage of spares, also influenced the navy’s decision, officials indicated.
Sanctions on India — and Pakistan for its nuclear tests — were lifted in late 2001.
India’s P-3C Orion lease was to be a precursor to purchasing eight others to augment its reconnaissance requirements which the navy presently considers “highly inadequate” for anti-piracy operations, narcotics control and to counter natural and ecological disasters like tsunami’s or oil and chemical spills.
In anticipation, P-3C Orion manufacturers Lockheed Martin had signed a non-disclosure technical assistance agreement with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore last year to share export controlled data related to technical and commercial proposals to retrofit the MRAs to the Indian Navy’s requirements.
The Indian Navy has now sent out to MRA manufacturers in the US, France, Britain and Russia a request for proposals for the outright purchase of eight MRAs.
These will replace a similar number of Tupolev Tu 142 ‘Bear Foxtrot’ MRAs that are being retired after negotiations with Russia and Israel to retrofit them were called off three years ago.
The Indian Navy confirmed that it was also involved in exploratory talks with Boeing Corp for possible involvement in the P-8A MMA it is developing based on the Boeing 737NG platform.
The Indian Navy believes that the P-8A would match the combined operational profile presently being executed by its existing fleet of Ilyushin Il-38 and Tu 142 MRAs.
It also considers its involvement in the Boeing MMA programme an ‘evaluation’ and ‘test’ of Washington’s long-term military and strategic commitment to India and a possible counter to possible future sanctions.
Washington considers the Indian Navy a stabilising force in the Indian Ocean region and wants a closer working relationship with it as it straddles the strongest area of strategic convergence: sea-lane protection.
The US is also keen that the Indian Navy, which has a formidable presence in the Indian Ocean region, to officially join the Washington-led proliferation security initiative (PSI) which seeks to interdict vessels suspected of carrying weapons of mass destruction and associated equipment.
Meanwhile, the Indian Navy last month received the first of its five Il-38 MRAs upgraded to the Il-38 SD standard and equipped with the Morskoi Amei (Sea Dragon) radar system compatible with the navy’s proposed strategic deterrence.
The remaining four similarly upgraded MRAs will be delivered to the Indian Navy by early next year. Two of these aircraft are replacements being provided by Rosonboronexport for the ones that crashed in October 2002.
Currently, the Indian Navy is dependent on its fleet of around 20 Dornier 228 aircraft and Israeli Searcher Mark II and Heron unmanned aerial vehicles to monitor India’s 7,516-km long coastline, 1,197 islands and a two-million sq km exclusive economic zone.
Source: Hindustan Times Via Military News Group©
Jungle BoyBrazil will probably have to share those ex-RSAF F-5 with Kenya.
From Military News
Government Eyes Used Saudi Fighter Jets
The Nation (Nairobi)
July 31, 2005
Posted to the web August 1, 2005David Okwemba
NairobiKenya Air Force jet fighters in a fly-past during celebrations to
mark the force’s 40th anniversary. KAF’s ageing F5s went into
service in 1978.The Government of Kenya may buy 14 used fighter jets from Saudi
Arabia if negotiations between the two countries are concluded.A team from the Department of Defence has already assessed the
planes which are expected to supplement the depleted fleet of the
Kenya Air Force F5 fleet.The jets being sold by the Royal Saudi Air Force have been priced at
Sh2.4 billion.From 44 jets on offer, a KAF technical team that visited Saudi
Arabia selected 10 F5Es being sold at Sh113 million each and four
F5Fs at Sh300 million each.The KAF’s ageing F5s went into service in 1978 and are today valued
at just Sh75 million each. Curiously, the Saudi jets have been in
service longer but have been given a much higher price tag.The jet deal was initiated through a written offer from the Saudi
Defence minister to his Kenyan counterpart.In April last year, a team of KAF officers visited Saudi Arabia and
inspected the jets, selecting the 14 which met Kenyan requirements.“These aircraft are those that the team was convinced had met the
criteria set,” a DoD report says.The criteria included the number of hours flown, modifications and
upgrades and installed equipment.The Sh2.4 billion was the price set by the Saudi Government but the
Kenyan side is yet to accept the terms.Contacted by the Sunday Nation, DoD spokesman Mr Bogita Ongeri
conceded that the department was considering buying the Saudi jets.
But he said the deal was still in the formative stages.“We have not reached any agreement and we can withdraw at any
stage,” the DoD spokesman said.Permanent Secretary for Defence, Mr Zachary Mwaura, is the chairman
of the committee evaluating the Saudi deal.Also in the team are the Deputy Commander of the KAF Brigadier H. M.
Tangai, the Chief of Systems Brigadier N. Njenga, the Deputy
Director of Budget at the Treasury Mrs J. K. Gichuhi, a State
Counsel Mr A. Mboya and a Ministry of Foreign Affairs official Mrs
S. Orina, as well as a group of technical officers from the KAF.According to DoD sources, the Government had sanctioned the purchase
and the negotiations would be held on government-to-government basis.Apart from looking into financial arrangements with the Saudi
authorities, the Government is also looking for ways to negotiate
much lower prices than those quoted.The purchase team now wants the DoD and KAF to work out a
comprehensive basis for negotiations.On May 19, 2005, Mr Mwaura chaired a nine-man committee in his
office to deliberate on the acquisition of the jets. Other than
structural and avionics upgrades, the technical team is also to
confirm if the jets had undergone engine upgrades and assess the
need for modifications in communication and navigational equipment.They will also look at the support equipment and spare parts that
will come as part of the package.The purchase of the jet-fighters is the second most expensive item
on the DoD’s Budget after the controversial naval ship deal that has
so far cost the Kenyan taxpayers a staggering Sh4.1 billion.The plan to purchase the jets was initiated one year after the one
for the ship, which is due to be delivered at the end of this month.The ship deal, which was awarded to Euro-Marine Industries in April
2003, is a subject of investigation by the Kenya Anti-Corruption
Commission (KACC).The anti-graft watchdog has so far talked to the Navy Commander,
Major-General Pasteur Awitta, and his deputy Brigadier Mwathethe.The KACC investigators have also called for files from DoD in their
efforts to get to the bottom of the tendering process that saw Euro-
Marine clinch the deal.
Jungle BoyI think Jungle Boy is just grumpy because this piece of news has effectively sealed the fate of the Su-35……it’s now a dead horse.
To replace only the Mirage III fleet, only 20 aircrafts, of course my option would be Flankers. To replace Mirage III, AMX and F-5 I would go for Gripens.
To fill the gap, used F-16 would be my choice.
No more Mirages, we had enough of the french´s logistic nightmare.
Jungle Boyso now dassault rules Brazilians air forces, and 300m of what?
Worst. They rule the government. A very weak and corrupt one.
do you really beleive that retrofit in dash 5 will cost 300m euros? lol
for 12 planes?
Greece had spent 20 million Euros to upgrade the electronic suite of its Mirages to -5 standard. Add this cost, more contracts over new support system needed to operate the aircraft, plus news weapons, new training, new tools etc. In the end you´ll expend at least 25 million Euros to upgrade an used aircraft with dubious results, especialy when you´ll have to operate it untill 2040 as frontline fighter, the case of Brazil. What a joke.
I know FAB very well and I´ll tell you for sure that there is the possibility these Mirages will never suffer an upgrade while serving FAB. I saw FAB upgrading its fleet of Mirage III in late 80´s early 90´s. They gave up in the middle of the process, only one MIII received an in-flight refueling system and the rest of the fleet suffered a cheap retrofit and a overhauled engine, nothing more.
there ares lots of air forces that would like to pay 5m a trash m2k RDI that made his proofs all around the world?
FAB is despaired. Mr. Lula said to them, “you´ll only get this, if you won´t acept you get nothing”. What would you do? They have a country to protect, or at least try.
I don´t see many air forces looking for Mirages. I saw Mirage being dropped in South Africa, Poland, Chile. They get into FAB´s in the back door. Qatar is selling its fleet. India won´t buy Mirage if Super Hornet is avaliable.
When was the last time Mirage achieved an order?
Upgrade to -5 Standard is a viable option only for those countries who already operate de model like Peru or India.
Why should I buy a 20 years old aircraft, expend 25 million Euros to upgrade it with only 15 years left for safe flight. Who will support the aircraft after that? Dassault? Like they did if the Mirage III fleet in Brazil, when only 4 of the 20 bought were in flight conditions due logistic problems not related to budget issues.
With this post-sale support I would prefer to buy Migs than Mirages.
Jungle Boybecause Dassault payed bribes to Lula and did a gift to get them 12 m2k for 60m!
what kind of marijuanah do u smoke!
Do you really think it was a gift?
They payed 60 million Euros for that trash and Dassault will put pressure to FAB upgrades those planes and that will cost at least 300 million Euros.
Is this your concept of gift? 😡
In the end, this will became a billion dollar deal for used aircrafts.
Some people say that acquiring Mirage now means Rafale in the future. I say that it is a lie. This deal means only more used Mirages in the future and FAB will be forced to fly then until 2040.
By the way, I don´t like marijuanah, I like “farinha”, that made in Colombia. 😉
Jungle BoyWhy dont they buy from Qatar. India does not seem interested.
Because Qatar didn´t payed bribes to Mr. Lula, the french did. Dassault via Embraer(I don´t know if Mr. Valerio is in this game :rolleyes: ) payed millions of dollars in Mr. Lula electoral campaign.
Jungle Boyjungle boy…
do you have a problem? 😡
what kinda’ junk will be best suitable for your taste? :diablo:Camaro.
My mistake. I should wrote trash instead piece of junk :o. I wasn´t sure about the writing.
Jungle BoyNo more so than the Ye-8 is a copy of this:
http://www2.odn.ne.jp/flip-around/military-aircraft/f100b_01.jpg
You won. 🙁 .
I quit.
Jungle BoyIs the Typhoon a MiG Ye-8 clone? :diablo:
Jungle BoyThese are the clowns who will fly that piece of junk called Mirage. 🙁
Jungle BoyShould Russia decide to move forward with this project, all the power to them but, maybe they should take care of the armed forces current state before moving to a new weapon system.
I agree. Russia´s forces need better payment, housing etc. But they also need modern helicopters and transport aircrafts. Ka-60 and Mi-38 must be ordered to replace at least older Mi-8 and retired Mi-6. This will give them a chance in the world market. The newly produced european helicopters(EH-101 and NH-90) are getting very expensive and there´s a slight chance of the new generations of russian helicopters to enter new third world market such Latin America. The basic version of the Kamov Ka-60 is supposed to cost 4,5 million dollar, a similar US made helicopter, the UH-60 costs 12 million dollar each and a european one costs more than 30 million dollar. I believe the russians should give the priority to helicopters and transport planes like the An-70 instead fighters.
It doesn´t mean they should neglect PAK´s development. It must be developed first to meet Russian air Force needs (the motherland should always comes first) and second to the world market and in this case they should work with europeans companies, especially the french companies, to create an export version of PAK. Israeli companies like Elbit and IAI also should help the creation of this export version of PAK. Exactely like they did in Su-30MKI.
Please forgive my english, I´m not a english speaker and I´m also a litlle drunk, I liked this topic and decided to express my opinion, or at least part of it.
Jungle BoyJungle: You mentioned the S-80 (thank you for jogging my memory, with it’s GE turboprops it should actually do well
I found some drawing about the suposed S-80´s MPA version.
It is suposed be armed to the teeth :dev2:
A very beautifull airplane. No semblance of the soviet-era transports, looks like more a US aircraft design than a russian one.
Jungle BoyThe P99 looks very nice but I guess a CN-235 turboprop would be a cheaper option.
P99 info http://www.airforce-technology.com/contractors/modifications/embraer/
CN-235 info http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/cn235mp/
P-99 is too short legged, expensive and is fitted with poor systems. I would go for a matitime patrol version of the ERJ-190, using the EADS FITS.
Good options are P-3, Persuader and smaller planes like Bandeirulhas or C-212. Of course all this will depend the level of treath you´ll have to deal with. Perhaps that new russian transport, the Sukhoi S-80 could be used in this role.
The 737, or P-8 is ideal to the US, but isn´t for Brazil.
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