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PLA-MKII

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Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 1,462 total)
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  • PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Turbo jet less fuel efficient compared to turbofan, F-22 used a low bypass ratio engine for better speed rather than fuel efficiency.
    All 4.5 and 5 generation fighters have pretty expensive radar and EW systems.

    Obviously, we are designing a fighter not a passenger plane. If we are to replicate supercruise at altitude, the point Sprey is making is a Turbojet can do it (just like the engines of the F-22 which are very low bypass engines).

    and what happen when these high value asset get destroyed ?

    What happens when your airfields are destroyed? “what happens…” many things happen in war my friend. The point being made is that your eyes don’t have to be attached to your fists.

    MK-1 eye ball won’t beat IIR system and SAR in detection range, especially in clutter environment, not even remotely close.
    A-10 won’t loiter longer than an UAV, a small UAV like MQ-1 can last for 24 hours. In term of fire power, A-10 can carry the GAU-8 which is nice, but if we talking about destruction and range, it won’t beat SDB or JDAM. The only real advantage of GAU-8 is lesser collateral damage but with new weapons like APKWS, LOGIR, it isn’t that special anymore.

    Agreed. However, you will always find that going slow and going low helps in CAS and in tactical bombing. This is a well established principle. No CAS platform is designed as a supersonic aircraft, if it is designed for that particular purpose.

    Slow SAM can fly at Mach 3-4, fast SAM can fly at Mach 6-10, you won’t be able to out accelerate or out run modern long range SAM

    Yes, but the NEZ (No escape zone) shrinks depending on the speed and altitude of the incoming aircraft. Which was the point being made. This is why the PAKFA is fundamentally a superior platform for taking out SAM sites than the F-35 can be.

    The rest of your post didn’t merit a response.

    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    I was just thinking about the concept of a light fighter, as envisioned by the Fighter Mafia. This was basically:

    1. A single engined platform
    2. Has decent range and sustainment
    3. Is cheap and focused on maximum sortie generation
    4. Has minimal electronics, focusing on cheap, light and effective and nothing “good to have”

    This fighter was envisioned to work along with a heavier and superior fighter (say like the F-22 / F-15) and with other support assets such as tankers, awacs, ground based radars, EW aircraft.

    This makes a lot of sense in terms of not trying to replicate every capability into every platform. We aren’t building cruisers or destroyers. For God’s sake, we are building a fighter aircraft. Major sensors can be off board. Every fighter does not need to have a heavyweight radar, or giant EW units. These can be designated to AWACS and EW aircraft.

    Should such a fighter do CAS or tactical bombing? Should such an aircraft do deep penetration strikes? The answer in both cases, is a resounding NO!!!

    Deep penetration in a peer to peer conflict is today, best done by a UCAV.

    For CAS, tactical bombing and deep penetration, you need the ability to sustain long loiter times, at least 4-6 hours. Very often at low level. These mean the aerodynamics of a modern fighter are not compatible at all. What you end up doing is trying to make a compromise, and the adage, a camel is a race horse designed by a committee comes into play.

    Can such a plane play a supporting role in tactical bombing missions or in providing top cover for a deep strike? Yes it can. But it must first and foremost be designed for an air superiority mission, without compromise.

    The US understands the role of the heavy air superiority fighter. It understands the importance of off board sensors such as AWACS, EW, ELINT, tankers.

    But somewhere it lost its way with understanding deep strike. This was best done by a relatively low cost UCAV. Somewhere it lost its way with understanding CAS. Its not about dropping munitions from 10,000 feet. To do proper CAS you need to be down there with your MK1 eyeball to spot hidden tanks, artillery, etc. A UAV is never a substitute. If you want UAVs to do the spotting then they can do the firing too. But guess what? No grunt on the ground has ever wanted that over an A-10 above their heads with giant loiter and firepower.

    Somewhere down the line, the USAF thought overcoming S-400s, and a sophisticated IADS was best done by a trillion dollar all-in-one product rather than a cheap and expendable UCAV. Or something with superior kinematic performance to reduce the NEZs.

    And somewhere down this mad bureaucratic settup, people started calling the Fighter Mafia a group of mad men living in the past. Yet, they provide papers from way back in the 60s and 70s that appear most visionary and forward-looking, while not negating the experience of the past. Otherwise history becomes something like two corporations, Boeing and LM, wrote up some pamphlets and powerpoint slides, and based on this, we have today’s air warfare philosophy, strategy, methodology”. And the USAF worked closely with them, having a revolving door of employees along with the Pentagon, and all these good ol’ boys came up with war as we know it, despite never meeting a peer air force in the last 70 years.

    Soviets? They don’t know a thing. Swedes? Meh… Israeli and Pakistani air forces that think BVR can be negated? They don’t even count. Let’s put all the money in the world and build a Swiss army knife of a turd instead. Disagree? Well, you’re either 1) Mad, 2) Foreign or 3) Living in the past, and we are just going to make up a scarecrow and beat it with nonsense.

    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Turbo jets are actually quite efficient in a hi-hi profile. That is why f22 engines are nearly turbojets with a very low bypass ratio.

    In the paper, Sprey calls for a radar that has, what we would describe as an LPI capability. But he wanted that radar to be cheap and light. Such a radar type seems possible although not developed.

    He doesn’t seem opposed to electronics as long as it is cheap and light.

    Something something jf17…

    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    That’s not what Sprey wrote, Yama. He said they should be separate roles, night attack / night fighters should be a separate procurement.

    In his time, thermal imaging and sat nav were probably not thought of. Today night flying is relatively simple and wouldn’t require a heavy weight radar on a fighter to be effective (data link).

    I think the problem is people don’t actually read his paper thoroughly. He is incredibly visionary, talking back then about LPI, distributed aperture, netcentric warfare, LO, and so much more.

    If the Fighter Mafia represented one end of the spectrum, the JSF crowd represented the opposite end – everything can be built into a pissy fat gold-plated swiss army knife that costs $1 trillion. And… errr… no fighter can challenge this plane or…. errr… we will call you names.

    But if we didn’t think him mad, the JSF crowd would never have been able to get away with what they did. Think about that.

    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Not my idea, its Pierre Sprey. Read the paper properly.

    He mentions a host of things that make sense and is relevant today, or so I would argue.

    Sprey explains the basic concept of LPI and distributed aperture. He talks about stealth. He thinks Turbojets can be revived as an alternative paradigm. HE wants a smalll delta light fighter.

    There is no evidence today’s planes are efficient in modern combat either. Last air2air was in 2001?

    I have no problems being associated with Pierre Sprey’s ideas. They are essentially what I think make sense. Ridicule them all you like.

    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Brilliant paper by Pierre Sprey. Great read. I think a lot of what he says is bang on. still. If a light fighter were to be designed with his principles today, it would be as follows:

    1. A single turbo jet engine, optimized for supercruise.
    2. Stealth with minimal internal or semi-recessed anti-aircraft missiles
    3. Passive sensors (no active radar on the aircraft is needed). RWR, MAWS, IRST, etc). Data-linked to off-board sensor platforms.
    4. A simple, no frills design, possibly even a simple delta.
    5. Production in numbers.

    Pierre Sprey, although reviled, is probably on the money when it comes to where real combat effectiveness lies. And the impossible situation fighter development has reached with the 5th generation. Perhaps the 6th generation should be what he envisioned. Would be mighty effective against the gold-plated 5th gen planes.

    PS: An interesting question in my mind is if a distributed aperture can be “a radar without a radar”, providing an LPI like ability without actually even being a traditional radar.

    PPS: The last generation of turbojets were designed by China. Would be interesting as a concept to see if that gen could be “taken to the next level” to create a supercruising turbojet.

    in reply to: Chinese air power thread 18 #2194847
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Ahem ahem. Thread is filled with prejudiced and racist opinions about members. FYI I have no special love of China or Pakistan. My parents fought the Pakistanis and my father was captured and tortured by Pakistanis. Bangladesh will be facing JF-17s in combat against Burma.

    China does not even share a border with us and BD has very little strategic value for China. I was a silent observer until the forum banned Munir aka PLA. I simply chose the acronym as a protest. Remember, some of us have been here since the early 2000s.

    Everybody understands justice and balance. And we all love a good underdog. Which is why a lot of ppl like the if-17.
    And why we dislike bullies such as America: World Police or India. And alliances are made on self interest not psychological complexes. None of these posts have anything to do with the topic so can we kindly get back on track?

    in reply to: Chinese air power thread 18 #2208544
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    It does look a bit like the Tejas because of the delta but it most reminds me of a cross between the Mirage 2000 and the Rafale. A 5th generation version is what I envision the next Pak-China joint venture should roughly look like –

    A delta design keeps costs down and simplifies an optimal high-high flight profile.
    A LERX or even better LEVCONS like the PAKFA
    No internal weapons bay but stores would be carried on the fuselage caved in a way as to avoid radar reflection from most frontal angles.

    in reply to: Chinese air power thread 18 #2208689
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    That’s a beautiful plane Y-20.

    in reply to: JF-17 vs J-10 vs LCA #2142764
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    I would really like to see your figures Paralay. I see you have used the classic method developed during WWII and looks to me you are using the standard Russian / Soviet method. You are keeping Su-27 as the standard I assume.

    I think it may be interesting to factor the following in:
    1. Logistic efficiency & Servicibility (should include operational costs, turnaround time)
    2. Combat Efficiency (this should include things like range, payload, aircombat effectiveness, electronics & avionics)

    in reply to: Building a Non-Flying Hurricane #850461
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    It would be ambitious work for somebody out there! It could be possible. You could derive 1/5 scale parts in a similar manner to gedburke3‘s methodology, starting with some off-the-shelf kit and scaling up the parts accordingly (without treading on toes of course). You could 3D print these parts, and something like a more detailed cockpit interior and exterior parts. You could then ‘skin’ the framework using more traditional methods, trusting that everything is compatible with your 3D printer’s substrate.

    Alternately you could re-scale the parts from the balsa kit and have them laser-cut by a commercial company. How you scan each piece I do not know, nor do I know what format (etc) you would need to provide the company with.

    To keep costs down, there may well be companies in China that could do either the 3D printing and laser cutting for a cut down cost if you are buying multiples. I’ve liaised with a few musicians I know in a particular circle, and we’ve discussed having an unusual bass guitar design built in China with, say, five of us involved to keep the costs down.

    Some great ideas there Meddle. What bass guitar design was it? I used to play bass myself.

    I’m right now looking for Sindlinger plans and may find a way to pay for them too. Does anyone know where I could by Sindlinger’s 5/8 scale Hurricane blueprints?

    Would really be of some help as I can’t seem to find any for sale online! which is really strange…

    in reply to: Building a Non-Flying Hurricane #851527
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    What about building a large scale model first and then deciding if you really want to go ahead with full size?
    ….

    If you’re going to spend 10,000 hours building a replica, then spending a couple of hundred hours planning what level of detail and then what construction approach you’re going to use will likely be worthwhile.

    An excellent suggestion HURRIRV7. I’m thinking of something bigger like Sindlinger size. Anything smaller will not make me motivated and I’m likely to lose interest. Also, I’m mainly interested in the structural aspect and its hard to implement that in small replicas….

    TonyT:
    Thanks those look like brilliant little planes. Thing is, I was just noticing they don’t have the structural genuineness I’m looking for…

    Flyingblind:
    Those pictures really help! Thanks I love looking at the Warren-Girder innards. Both informative and helpful for my project.

    Beermat:

    That is exactly what I want to do! Build the Warren-Girder structure as was original, even if in somewhat smaller scale. And use dope cloth and all those long lost building techniques!

    QLDSpitty:

    Thanks those are nice! Makes me realize how many parts and bits there are and how hard that would be to replicate!

    PS: How do I change the thread to the “Open Hurrican Project”?

    in reply to: Building a Non-Flying Hurricane #852274
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Hi

    I did this a few years ago relatively cheaply for a bit of fun.
    I bought a guillows balsa wood and tissue hurricane model in a 1/32 scale.
    This is a small scale model that has pre cut sections that you push out and trim as required. See picture below.
    Anyhow, once I removed each centre section I measured it precisely and multiplied that measurement by 32 to get its full size dimensions.
    I then marked that width and height on a piece of MDF which I stood up vertically against a wall.
    Then I placed the small moulded piece of balsa wood on an overhead projector and kept moving the projector back until the reflected image met up with the width and height measurements on my MDF.
    Then, using a marker pen, I drew this projected image onto the MDF sheet and cut it out to get a full size copy of the 1/32 scale model section.
    I repeated this until I had all of the sections from the propeller to two sections beyond the cockpit ( I only wanted a cockpit).
    These sections were then joined together using 2×1 roof battens.
    Finally the whole thing was then covered in old bedsheets and coated in multiple layers of unibond pva / water painted on and left to dry and stiffen.
    It worked really well.
    Don’t underestimate the size of a full size hurricane cockpit, it took up most of my garage.
    Gerry

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]246469[/ATTACH]

    That would really make my life easy but I am holding out for trying to build the actual internal skelaton as it was, even if its in slightly smaller size – maybe something like a Sindlinger. Brilliant idea, would love to see some pics of your project!

    in reply to: Building a Non-Flying Hurricane #852275
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    A couple of probably fairly worthless thoughts:

    1) Is it possible for designs to do the equivalent of going out of copyright, and if so is it simply the drawing, attributed to an individual, or does it apply to the design itself? I’m thinking of the various sundry aircraft that are labelled Spitfires, even if they differ in almost every element beyond a (passing) visual similarity. Was there a point in time when you couldn’t simply build a Spitfire in your shed and call it thus?

    Maybe OP should chair the ‘Open Hurricane Project’ with a view to making plans freely available available online, right down to CAD or CNC plans for 3D printable parts….

    2) Might it not be better for OP to work on restoring some basketcase replica? I recall a thread on here from somebody that had a fairly accurate replica of the rear half of a Hurricane; they were inquiring about its probable origins. While I’m not suggesting that that specific example is up for sale or suitable for restoration, but it seems that OP is trying to keep costs down so this might be a better move? The OP hasn’t detailed the materials they wish to use.

    Some excellent suggestions, I am presently living in Bangladesh so it would be hard to find a basketcase replica… I think the Open Hurricane Project sounds awesome, let me see if I can change it to that.

    I wish to use steel, wood, various types of scrap, and of course siloconed/doped cloth / various fabric/paint combinations…

    in reply to: Building a Non-Flying Hurricane #852281
    PLA-MKII
    Participant

    Hi,

    Alas, it was 15 years ago and the computer they were stored on was ruined in a flood.
    It looked very realistic (from about 50 foot away), but once you were sat in the cockpit you were in no doubt that it wasn’t going anywhere. :very_drunk:
    The hardest part was the canopy. I used some steel building ties (see pic below) which i connected together and bent over into the shape of a hurricane canopy.
    Then, I used a thin sheet of flexible perspex sheet to form the glazing. The glazing was held firm using bolts passed through holes that already come drilled in the building ties. The ability to slide it open and shut was achieved using kitchen drawer runners.
    Once all this was painted it looked OK.

    It would have made a really good flight sim rig if you had a room big enough to indulge yourself.
    I would estimate that the whole thing was about 15 foot long and 4 foot wide.

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]246474[/ATTACH]

    That sounds amazing! about a 5/8 scale I assume? I’m toying with the idea of scaling it down to make it less costly, specially after reading this thread. It would be a great achievement if I can get as far as you did! I’d rather lower my ambitions and have a finished product than fail miserably. I was just looking at the Sindlinger…

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 1,462 total)