PLA-MKIIHi Deino, thanks for your reply, yes it must be a technical book. I can’t write anything right now, one needs to be at peace to do such things. Can’t quietly write a book while one’s brothers and sisters are dying…
A weapon system that is useless to what is happening bexomes a peripheral and meaningless thing. We are seeing Muslims waking up in a way I have not seen before even suring the Arab spring hay days. Ppl in the West are mostly missing out in the change of sentiment.
I have always been (sic) “radical” so to speak but now we are very much becoming the mainstream rather than the shunned minority. You will probably see the collapse of Saudi Arabia in your lifetime and a general war against Israel (with the West eventually dragged into it).
But that’s just my views and not to be off topic will close the topic at that.
PS: as the grandson of one of the founders of Pakistan, it was supposed to be a state that would champion the Muslim cause, sadly it was taken by a counter revolution of secular civil servants, landowners and military men (aka brown sahibs) who had been putin place by the British, so the JF17 does not actually serve the purpose for which Pakiatan was created. Pakistan today is a shadow of the state it was meant to be and its secular elite will take it even further.
PLA-MKIIEverything is closed for me till we figure out what is happening in Arabia. Forget JF-17 or just about anything else till we find a solution to this madness, in’sha’Allah (God Willing).
What use is the JF-17 when it cannot stop the murder of hundreds of children, the rape of thousands of women, the torture and oppression of entire populations. No use to me, no use to the Muslim world, no use to humanity.
PLA-MKIIOld thread, back in my good old days when i was a lot more pro Iran lol. Wonder if the f-5s will see action in Iraq. It seems their versions were indeed just for show
PLA-MKIIAs far as i know the Pakistani side has not confirmed any deal, the mi 35s are still being negotiated. Please do share some links, i could be wrong of course. PS: nobody cares what india thinks
PLA-MKIIThe RD 93 is great but has its limits. Main one being that dry thrust is quite low for a modern turbofan engine.
PLA-MKIIHi Deino, thanks must have gotten the wrong specs which i confess were from wiki. Rumour has it 2 mi-35m are already there being tested, perhaps on loan from the RUAF. Pakistan has always been interested in flankers for a maritime role for the PN. Previously there was interest in the j11. They would probably look for a single maritime squadron if not less than that so costs should not be an issue.
Between Russian flankers are amazing value for money and much more cost efficient maintenance wise than before. A handful of Su-35s could hold the Indian carrier at quite a distance from Pakistani shores and put a spanner in IN war plans.
At this point flanker negotiations are just rumours. Much more likely are anywhere between 40-200 helicopters.
From what i understand, (and this is my speculation) a historic deal between Pakistan and Russia is being made, and its starting with a big arms deal that includes Mi-17s, Mi-35s, SAM systems, and a myriad of other smaller items. Russian weapons probably suit Pakistani requirements much better than American – reasonably priced, rugged, effective.
PS: the really interesting part is that a PAF officer went to Russia for very successful talks on “air defence” matters. Mi35s and assault helis are operated by the PA not PAF. And have little to do with air defence. Munir, a longtime forumer with a track record of getting his insider info right notes tantalizingly that he cannot say anything but he is shocked at what is being discussed between Russia anf Pakistan and it is beyond anything he had imagined.
PLA-MKIII have this question gnawing in my head – can an al-31 be modified to fit a MiG-29 / 35 or JF-17? I was looking at the specs and noticed that they are about the same diameter (RD-93 actually is slightly wider!). Al-31 is longer, but if some of the stages could be reduced (compromising max afterburning thrust) you could have a great engine that would be signifocamtly less fuel thirsty… particularly at dry thrust.
9 compressor stages could surely be rationalized? If turbofan engines have nonafterburning versions, this should be possible?
Incidentally their is a rumour PAF is interested in Russian Mi-35s and even flankers. I thought an al-31 could perhaps even power a jft and solve its thrust issues…
PLA-MKIIWell it seems my viewpoint is unwelcome so I will leave this conversation, good luck understanding what is happening in the state formerly known as Iraq!
PLA-MKIIWell, just a note for onlookers, sheytankebir means “the great satan”. He is a shia and connected to the Iraqi military and represents something of a Baghdad Bob character providing “news”.
The Mahdi army started genocide in Baghdad, the moment the US stepped in. You can ask the Americans about that. The. Shia practice of “taqiya” can only go so far as to hide info in this era.
The shiite govt of Maliki has been a sectarian and hateful govt oppressing Sunnis for a long time. Again, verify via third party sources. Any resistance to them is dubbed as terrorism via taqiya.
The ISF has been commanded largely by shiites. And with large, majority dominant ahia components. “Sheytankebir” is foing his taqiya by trying to windowdress all this and blame it on Sunnis and Kurds (between Kurds are also sunnis and together sunnis make up a very big proportion – only by showing sunnis separately can they game you into their “majority”).
Sheytankebir, so aptly named, amd his taqiyya will lie like baghdad bob, to suit his ends.
To clarify a few of points – Baiji and tal afar are most certainly under ISIS. The shiite soldiers, oppressors and corrupt to the core, ran for their lives like headlesa chicken. XXXXXXXXMeanwhile, over 100,000 shiites XXXXXXXXXX over less than 10,000 lightly armed, pickup truck driving soldiers.
The Kurds tried to help them but they are singularly ungrateful and trecherous and killed a bunch of Kurds out of spite. Still the Kurds are still helping in the eastern hinterland around jalula and in diyala in general. Without this Kurdish help, they would be much worse off, yet, these 100,000s of cowards with the best tech there, billions of worth of equipment and training and target aquisition and recon by US, plus large number of reinforcements from Iran’s best troops, aXXXXXXXXX in Baghad, begging for help to save them.
That should say something.
PLA-MKIIJust a word of caution, you may be getting biased news. Daish aka ISIL are being seen as the good guys by the people and they are acting like it. A woman from Mosul writes that after many years she can sleep in peace. Raqqa’s streets are kept beautifully clean.
The moment the Americans “liberated” Iraq, the Mahdi Army and other shiite thugs started turning a Sunni majority Baghdad into predominantly shiite. They have continued those genocidal policies to the extent that baghdad and many other places now barely have sunnis left.
Daish seems to be the only language these ppl understand. I disagree with Sunni theology and am not a Sunni, I even used to respect and suport Hizbollah, but the truth is now clear to me, God Willing and I support Daish, (who I had formerly considered a terrorist and evil group and widely condemned them).
Always remember that the news is manufactured
PLA-MKIIRebroadcast would be a great value added to the mix, enavling netcentrism even for el cheapo armies.
Another element is DEW like laser SAM countermeasures. These are now cheap and light enough to be already in use with US forces in afghanistan for quite a few years.
My biggest cost growth worries though are too many gizmos. I think the two biggest cost elements would be a small radar for terrain hugging and anti-artillery / anti-artillery radar work, the other being FLIR.
Another possible value adding proposition, is a small EW kit. Since this will be close to the enemy over critical enemy electronic assets, it could be very useful. Would not need to be too powerful as ew is exponential to distance
PLA-MKIIHmmmm.
Been pondering the thread again when waiting for NASGRO to do its stuff…
There are a number of aspects we need to consider in greater depth I think.
1. Is the primary aim to provide a means of indirect fire to front-line troops engaged with enemy combatants in relatively close proximity? i.e. very tactical support, on a platoon/company level?
2. Is the primary aim to provide a means of increasing the effective range of the overall fire solutions available to the unit commander in the field? Wider tactical support, on a divisional/corps level?
3. Is the primary aim to provide a means of deep interdiction, removing targets that are more toward the infrastructure of the enemy’s fighting machine rather than the machine itself? Which would be support on a theatre level… if not quite strategic.
For (1) I’m thinking hovermast (as mentioned by lukos) which can be used by the troops to paint a target, then either rocket launched LGB or guided mortar rounds.
For (2) your looking at something a bit more A-10 than UAV, but probably with network integration with the ground troops to spread information both in the air and on the ground.
For (3), your going to have to penetrate AD belts. For which I think you’d need a pukka strike aircraft.
Amiga, i think the roles are overlapping but somewhat centered on #2. The aircraft can certainly play a decisive role in the artillery battle, which includes radars 30-50 miles back. It can act as a uav mothership. It can provide a major intel load for the networked troops.
It is flexible enough to be utilized at the brigade level, battalion level or division level. It can kill tanks, and thwart a panzer surprise attack – when seconds count it will be available as it is based with the formation not in some rear bases. It can provide limited standoff fire support and limited precision attack. …
PLA-MKIITo my mind the problem is a definitional one. Cas could be anything from a Cessna with a single fifty Cal ( which would arguably be enough against unsupported troops with no heavy weapons) all the way up to a B1 loitering on station or a flight of billion dollar fast jets. As a rule these are merely delivery systems as the problems of discriminating against enemy or friendly forces at 400 kts are probably insurmountable.
Studies in Vietnam showed that attacking forces, even with four to one odds, could be held by supported defensive forces with three hundred mortar rounds no matter what supporting forces they had.
Response time is clearly the key, which is generally taken to mean speed. Speed however means heat, and noise. Probably in a squared relationship.
Hence my idea to revive your small and cheap Cas airframe with effort made to reduce the chance of detection and engagement.
Manpads almost exclusively rely on visual identification before ir signature comes into play. The cue however is almost certainly noise rather than visual. Hence whilst it would mean swapping payload carrying batteries for quiet if not silent running to power a ducted fan with a diesel or micro turbo generator might make sense.
I’m not sure a transport would benefit though. Saying that two of them could race track overlapping circuits with the one closest to feba running quiet and cool while the covering aircraft further back running hot to recharge.
Primarily a spotter, similar to the way ov1 mohawks used slar and ir to peek into the jungle.
Good point Chaffers, you are right that i need to rethink diesel-electric. Brilliant stuff. I love the race track idea, also creates a new dynamic to the wingman concept that is far more interesting.
How would the idea of a drone mothership fit in? I am thinking that would help in the standoff quadrant and in terms of getting more “bang for the buck”. Not everyone can afford satellite data links, and ground control against an enemy with ew assets is also troublesome.
I think we have something here, just no takers.
The deisel recharge makes more sense the more i think about it. Quiet when needed, stealth CAS. The submarine equivalent.
PLA-MKIIThanks for reviving the thread! Sorry have been a silent spectator for the last 6 months. I owe halloweenee an article, :o) apologies halloweenee!!! I recently got an acre of land and am busy developing it into a permaculture farm demonstrating sustainable living. So have been busy dreaming up solar fridges, new forms of home construction and tampering with hugelkultur…
Some brilliant ideas here so just had to respond!!!! Thanks specially to Chaffers!
Lets say we accept the thesis that precision artillery and mbrls can now do many of the things we previously understood as CAS. Another way to look at this is to note that defeating artillery only becomes more important now. A small low flying aircraft can clearly play a role that can directly effect this. Among many other vital roles.
Yes, when seconds matter, CAS was only minutes away, then. This does not mean this has to be so tomorrow. If one has the vision. You could incorporate aircraft within your military formation.
About a sideways gun placement, nice idea! And i am very grateful for the examples from vietnam and the past. A diesel electric beats my own idea of a diesel engine hands down for this purpose too. 🙂
How about if we took a systems approach? A single engined low flying light attack and recon plane and a twin engined tactical transport. Both sharing the same engine and as many subsystems as possible. A version of this small twin engined transport as a gunship.
Just thinking that may be easier than if we tried to fit A 57mm into the side of a plane. If we can, that is awesome, but the worry is to make a plane that has a lot of gimmicks but cant do anything right (i almost wanted to talk about the JSF but wisdom and experience suggests it would ruin the thread)
PLA-MKIIApologies for being off topic, I’m trying to get in touch with halloweene, his inbox has exceeded capacity… I know he frequents this page – anyone knows how I could get in touch with him? I can be reached at m.hussain”at”grandestrategy.com
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