The Code one article is flawed, and contradicts the pilots account and the research data as given in the Swedish research thesis and LM patent.
http://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/record.jsf?pid=diva2:221
See my previous two posts for details.
Transport: KC-390 6
Utility heli: Mi-17 20
Attack Helicopter: Z-19 12
UCAVs: Ch-4 40 (constant guard on the Western front)
Fighter: 80 JF-17 Block II
AWACs: ZDK-03 4
Tanker: KC-390-based 3
trainer: K-8 6, Super Mushak 12, JL-9 6
MPA: EMP-145 MP 8
Best way to deal with the maritime issue is to get a large number of cheap patrol vessels to petrol those waters constantly and protect your fishing and other vessels from harrassment, something like China in the south China sea.
The record can only be put straight with the right information, so I would request any forum members who are engineers to perhaps help set the record straight.
As I understand it, from reading about it a while ago and from memory of reading in hard copy the DSI F-16 testbed pilot’s interview, here is how I understand it (and again I am speaking from memory so open to correction):
1. Generally three types of inlets: i)Fixed ii) Variable iii) DSI
2. Variable inlets are maintenance intensive. Fixed and DSI, are not. DSI does not have a maintenance or cost advantage here against fixed inlets.
3. Fixed inlets suffer performance penalties, variable inlets provide the best performance across all regimes and DSI provides performance superior to the fixed inlet but does not cover the full range of performance of variable inlets.
4. The F-16 has fixed inlets. It does not lower operational costs by adopting DSI intakes. In contrast, the F-15 has variable inlets.
5. DSI intakes here would improve the performance of the F-16, not by much but still so. The reason it was not adopted was because i) USAF was not willing to fund it (for whatever reasons) ii) Would require extensive testing which would be costly iii) The cost-benefit of the above two made a LM private venture into this, vis-a-vis a small performance benefit, uneconomic.
6. Because the JSF was being designed from the ground up, it had no problems incorporating the DSI intakes.
7. DSI intakes were one of a number of modifications made to improve the performance of the JF-17, after the PAF deemed it needed to be improved to be competitive against IAF FLANKERs. Originally, the JF-17 had fixed inlets just like the F-16.
8. An interesting point here is that, as I remember the test pilot from the interview said, its as if the PW engine was changed for the more powerful GE engine… smooth throttle, etc. But bear with me here, the F-16 always had a healthy amount of thrust, and here the benefit is marginal.
Comparatively, the JF-17 has always been flet to be slightly deficient in that regard, and here the payoff of DSI just may be greater. In this regard, both the JF-17 and JSF are in the same boat.
Would gladly like to hear from aerodynamics professionals or other informed posters out there to explain this better, or to correct what I’ve said.
Edit: just found this from the patent filed by LM and info from American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics thanks to Teg from F-16.net:
Here is LM’s patent, lots of cool info there (only 18 pages long!)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5749542.pdfLM wrote:
In particular, the present invention does not require a boundary layer diverter, a side or splitter plate, a boundary layer bleed system or an overboard bypass system. Furthermore, the present invention has no moving parts. This reduction in complexity reduces the tactical fighter aircraft’s empty weight, production cost, and maintenance support requirements. These savings are estimated to be 250 pounds per aircraft, $225,000 per aircraft, and 0.03 maintenance man hours per flight hour, respectively.AAIA members have also studied the DSI’s performance;
http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/2010/CDRead … 10_481.pdfAmerican Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics wrote:
Flow Field and Performance Analysis of an Integrated Diverterless Supersonic Inlet. In this paper the computed flow and performance characteristics at low angle-of-attack (AOA) of an integrated Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI) are presented near its design mass flow rate. The subsonic characteristics are evaluated at M?=0.8 while the supersonic characteristics are evaluated at M?=1.7, which is near the design Mach number for the intake. In addition to the external flow features, the internal intake duct flow behavior is also evaluated. The results of this study indicate effective boundary layer diversion due to the “bump” compression surface in both subsonic and supersonic regimes. At M?=1.7, the shockwave structure (oblique / normal shockwave) on the “bump” compression surface and intake inlet is satisfactory at intake design mass flow ratio. The intake duct flow behavior at subsonic and supersonic conditions is generally consistent with “Y” shaped intake duct of the present configuration. The secondary flow structure inside the duct has been effectively captured by present computations. The computed intake total pressure recovery at M?=1.7 exhibits higher-then-conventional behavior at low mass flow ratios, which is attributed to inlet design feature. Overall computed subsonic and supersonic total pressure recovery characteristics are satisfactory under the evaluated conditions and are also in agreement with wind tunnel test data.
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=181064
Can u provide some references for those assertions palembang? Particularly no fc-1s?
The dsi f16 was a test bed not an operational aircraft. The interview of the dsi f16 test pilot indicates otherwise as to the improvement in the performance, this interview is published.
Thobbes, no idea but the general consensus is as you put it the f7p.
Some of those mirages are indeed very advanced.
Not sure when the nextblock of jft are coming. According to pshamim it may take a while as it is the standard paf wants to hold to and is structurally different from the older model. May be with ws13 engines.
On another note here is another article on the jft:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/554668/countries-express-interest-in-pak-chinas-jf-17-thunder/
Just wondering what other operational fighter had dsi intakes.
Just saw this on Pakdef, DRFM technology is apparently there for the JF-17 (its something PAF has been wanting badly but couldn’t get with the F-16s)
KG-300G has DRFM and the JF-17 uses this.
didn’t you also write that the jf-17 could beat the su-30mki once it got aesa and long range missiles?
I didn’t say that the way you’re thinking of it. I think most 4th generation aircraft can beat another 4th generation aircraft given the right conditions and training.
The arguments were certain fanboys and one Richard Aboulafia, who claimed that the JF-17 does not stand a chance. I stated that given the right equipment and tactics it can beat the indian FLANKERs. i.e. that the JF-17 is not going to be uncompetitive against them.
The recent Chinese “Red Flag” supports my assertion I’d say. Rather than for instance, SOC, who claimed that the JF-17 would not be able to compete against the FLANKERs.
Incidentally, while you keep citing how I claimed the JF-17 would be a big export success, you’re forgeting that I left a condition without which this would not be true – WS-13 engines.
JF-17 is ideal as PAF mainstay/workhorse. Supplement with limited numbers of J-31 — same engine! — from mid-2020s…
Yes, I agree with the first part – ideal as PAF’s mainstay / workhorse. About the second bit: I wrote about this possibility as far back as 2007!
However, there is one wild card still out there that has not been factored into either this discussion thus far or by any other commentator – the replacement for the J-10s and the Taishan engine. Let us consider this in some depth.
While originally the Taishan engine can be considered an additional appendage or a non-consequential sideshow, it could quickly evolve into a reason why the FC-1 can win out with the PLAAF. Consider that the J-10 ends production at around 500 and Chengdu begins producing J-XXs with twin Taishan engines. The ideal sidekick for such a plane would be a single engined fighter built around the Taishan. PLAAF gets this in the FC-1 and kills two birds with one stone – better logistics and employment for the thousands of Class B fighter squadrons. China’s fighter force does not go down, pilots do not end up getting laid off and ending up in foreign countries, China gets a viable export fighter and logistics for the PLAAF is significantly simplified.
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2009/03/light-sabre-for-third-world-fc-1-jf-17.html
As far as I recall, PAC Kamra can produce 30 JF-17 per year, according to a 2011 DID news, depending on demand, which depends on cash, something PAF and Pakistan has been short on.
As far as my mind recalls from Pakdef posts, production can be ramped up if required.
PGs and select Mirages will stay on beyond 2015. Both very potent and useful platforms, in their specific roles (point defense, strike). (Pakdef, again if memory serves me right)
JF-17s may go up to as much as 250 rather than 150, particularly since J-10s are not going through (this is an opinion shared by senior forum members and also given in publications, see for instance AMR, 2012).
Pakistan has maintenance facilities to maintain up to 100 F-16s. They are also very fond of the aircraft and have thoroughly mastered it. However, given the political and economic situation, more F-16 purchases seem impossible.
There are new reports suggesting a LO JF-17 coming ahead. Also specialized JF-17s for niche roles, and 2 seaters.
“Much of what he said still applies to today modern military”. What exactly did he say, would really appreciate that.
Didn’t meet a WWII vet but met a Vietnam / Korea vet (who incidentally was called up for duty for B-52?? operations over Iraq and – my memory fails me here – possibly also Afghanistan.
DSI stands for “Diverterless Supersonic Inlet”
As the present consensus is that this plane is designed for subsonic flight with afterburner used to enhance acceleration, the point is moot.
DSI helps reduce weight and complexity, as well as gives a feeling of a more powerful engine. Its more efficient than a fixed inlet like the F-16s or the F-5s. Its used by more advanced designs… 😉
But those designers don’t add them like a pancake mix to everything they build.
Well, not sure where this convo is headed, I was looking to read more about the Chinese stealth UCAV.
I think its somewhat safe to assume BIO and Sanem will not exactly see eye-to-eye anytime soon on UCAVs…
looks very interesting, I’ll give it a read 😉
Alright, but I warn you its lengthy and probably doesn’t have anything you arleady don’t know… its kind of written for a general audience…