PLA-MKII“only fools are sure of everything wise man keeps on guessing”
PLA-MKIISD-10B? What the heck is that?
They have barely cleared PL-12 for service for PLAAF and now we’ve moved onto B variants of SD-10 already?
SD-10A = SD-10B
depending on how you want to name it. For instance, there was no AIM-120 A with the first model, only when the second model came was it called so, and the second model was called a B. As compared to calling the WS-10’s newer version a WS-10A.
A little reflection may help before switching on a sardonic mode. 😉
PLA-MKIIWay to spin his views. The J 10A was flown conservatively in comparison to JF-17, thats what a certain PAF pilot said. Overall, the J 10A is more agile then JF 17, no doubt about that, but that does not mean JF 17 is a bad aircraft just the J 10 series is more advanced. Glad PAF is going for J10B.
Elementary my dear friends. In the world of real planes, each plane is designed within a parameter of tradeoffs. Hi-hi or low-low? All aerodynamic options are tradeoffs. Even the F-22, with all its great tech, made many tradeoffs and I suspect someday you will all learn about the weaknesses of those, as with any other aircraft.
PLA-MKIIWell, Janes is wrong with the last point – the JF-17 didn’t display the latest SD-10, it was an older one.
The missiles displayed in Zhuhai were not the new generation SD-10Bs but the earlier model.
See here
PLA-MKIIIt’s an unfortunate loss (especially since there aren’t many Rafales M in service…) but of fighter planes, only those who don’t use them, don’t lose them.
It may still be worth comparing the accident rate for the EF with the Rafale. 😉
PLA-MKIICV was parked along Pakistan’s shore, no issue of blue water. Aircraft obviously was not mechanically in a situation to land either on the carrier or at a Pakistani air base.
PS: On another note, maybe Pakistan can scavenge for the wreck and see how it ticks(ed).
PLA-MKIIGoldmine from Zhuhai
Eagle Hannan’s Goldmine from Zhuhai
Posded from here
The poster on Pakdef known as Eagle Hannan is a Pakistani engineer who works in Nanjing, China. He speaks both Urdu and Chinese fluently. He is a serious military aviation enthusiast. The city he comes from in China, Nanjing, is also the home of two of the J-10 pilots from the PLAAF that participated in the Zhuhai Air Show, 2010. He stayed at the same hotel as the PAF pilots and had many conversations with them as well as the PLAAF pilots. . Hannan attended all three public holidays and spent all three days with pilots and senior officers. Hannan has managed to collect a large amount of information and media and these have been cleared by senior personnel from the PAF for public release.
What follows is a summary of Eagle Hannan’s posts from Pakdef.
Hannan describes the aerobatics display of the JF-17 as brilliant. The JF-17 flew twice every day of the air show. He notes that the weather conditions were very bad and hard to take videos in. He said that the J-10s did not perform particularly well. Hannan comments that in 14 minutes of display there was a single performance of 360 and three half-hearted loops. He observes that the rest of the displays by the J-10 were formation flights. He notes that one of the Sherdil pilots comments about the J-10 pilots in Punjabi that the old men of China cannot fly their own planes.
In comparison, the JF-17s did much better. Hannan describes the Chinese crowd as going “wild” with the Thunder’s repeated tight turns, without a single one off-target from the venue.
In his conversations with the PAF, he has found out the following:
1. JF-17s will not have CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks).
2. The present batch of JF-17s has certain non-Chinese subsystems.
3. Air to Air missile tests for both WVR and BVR are complete.
4. PAF is impressed with the performance of SD-10s and confirms that the missile is comparable to the AMRAAM-Cs.
5. An improved SD-10s, designated here as SD-10Bs with improved range, seeker, new motor and better seeker has been tested in China on the FC-1. These missiles are marginally lighter than the first generation and are in the same standard as the best Western BVR AAMs.
The weight of the SD-10Bs still remains slightly greater than the AMRAAM Cs but this is not an issue anymore because the performance is equal or superior. The missiles displayed in Zhuhai were not the new generation SD-10Bs but the earlier model.
PAF order for the SD-10Bs will be fulfilled before PLAAF. Previous models will be upgraded to the new SD-10B standard. [Author’s note: this may suggest that PAF have provided critical input for the SD-10Bs]
6. PAF will standardize to this SD-10Bs. First 50 will have PL-9Cs as standard WVR missiles.
7. A new radar will possibly be used in the Block II JF-17s and the first block will be upgraded. These are likely to be AESA radars with a swash-plate, similar to the Gripen NG.
8. JF-17 radars are designed to be fully multirole.
9. Various new guided munitions are being tested in China. These include SDBs (Small Diameter Bombs) ideal for the light fighter class.
10. PAF’s second squadron of JF-17s is almost ready and flight trials are earmarked for early next year.
11. China is confirmed (yet again and without any doubt whatsoever) to buy the FC-1s. Consequently, production is being expanded in Pakistan’s production facilities, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), to meet the demand. These facilities are located in Kamra.
12. Close cooperation on the J-10B is taking place. The level of cooperation has been significantly expanded since 2009. The size of the cooperation is described as literally a small city-like facility to accommodate PAF and Pakistani civilian engineers. Hannan confirmed that civilian engineers from PAC are also part of the cooperation in China.
13. The J-10B will have Chinese radar and western subsystems will allow it to be integrated with Erieye and Chinese AWACS. This is not an assumption and Eagle Hannan, who is a telecom engineer himself, confirms that this is not a technical problem and reconfirms from PAF. There is no problem as long as the protocol messages and handshake procedures are known. He found out that PAF has a solution in terms of the middleware.
14. The middleware will not only be via a C4I but also direct communication middleware. Some of these are being developed in-house and some are being imported.
15. Whether JF-17s can data link with Erieye has not been confirmed due to diplomatic/political reasons. However, Hannan notes that from his discussions, it is implicitly obvious that they definitely can.
16. IFR (In-Flight Refueling) will be installed in later batches. These will be fixed IFRs and not retractable. [Author’s note: radar signature and aerodynamics penalty paid for simplicity of construction, cost and maintenance]. The JF-17s were designed from the ground-up to have IFRs installed.
17. Next block of JF-17s will have IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track) similar to those installed on the J-10B.
18. Pakistani ALCM Raad and H2/H4 ASM will be integrated and was a major reason why Pakistan has chosen to go with Chinese radars for Block 2 JF-17s.
19. Advanced composites have been tested for use on the Block 2 JF-17s. Present JF-17s also use some composites. J-10B/FC-20 is designed from inception from new advanced composites. FC-20s in PAF service will form the top tier in the PAF (above the F-16 Block 52+).
20. PAF denied any collaboration in Chinese 5th generation fighter program as this is a capability they are not familiar with. PAF senior officials stated that:
We cannot help develop a capability we don’t know. Like we don’t know what kind of sensor suite is in F-22 other than what we find from open-source. Such capability/requirement generation is not Air Force job but such technology information is brought in by other means [Hannan notes: espionage or intelligence I think this is what he meant]. We all know F-22 is stealth but what else it can do is what we don’t know. JF-17s are developed because we knew what we wanted from a 4th generation fighter as we already had an experience with capability, either by existing systems or by our collaboration with other air forces. Even US Air force only comes to know new capabilities when it’s presented to it. Chinese on the other hand, have the means to bring such information and develop on such information and PAF does not. We’ll see what they bring up.
Q&A with Senior Officers
Question: Why PAF does not do regular exercises with PLAAF? Have we evaluated their big aircrafts? Is this true that there was some consideration for J-11s?
Answer: We don’t have to publicize all our training programs and PLAAF is a very close partner, soon we’ll be flying same kind of Aircrafts so of course there has always been an interaction. PLAAF’s Sukhoi platforms are nice and before J10B, there was a consideration for J-11s in limited numbers to replace Mirages but now there is no such consideration anymore.
Question: What is the trust level about kill switches in F-16s?
Answer: You know the level of trust between the two countries, there is nothing discovered as such for now but may be its possible. New electronics can be very complicated. [Author’s note: translating Pakistani customary language nuances, the officer is being diplomatic and saying that there is little trust between the two sides. PAF considers kill switches a possibility and does not dismiss it as conspiracy]
Question: Why do we have to allow F-16s to be monitored by US personnel on our bases and what do they do? Do they sit on a chair in front of F-16s all day? What is the point of having an aircraft which we cannot even fly where US does not want it to and cannot even be parked alongside other air force platforms?
Answer There is no such restriction but there are some conditions we bought the F-16s with. We have all the control on our aircraft. They are only a few aircraft.
Question: India is offered F-16INs, which is most advanced block of F-16s to-date. They come with production rights and what not and we are given only a handful of downgraded F-16s and then they blame us for slipping tech to China.
Answer: Offer to them is for political reasons and weapons offered are not necessarily to tease Pakistan but to achieve some other US strategic goal. China has its own sources of information and tech transfer and does not require Pakistan to fly a block52 to China and allow China to steal technology.
Question: Maybe it is containment of China you meant as US strategic goal for which it wants to arm India but such systems will affect Pakistan. Sir, how do you see it?
Answer: Pakistan is drifting away from reliance on USA for weapons; Block52 might not be the most advanced aircraft in PAF within a few years from now.
Question: How do you see PAKFA?
Answer: I saw the Video in Sukhoi stand. Looks nice. [Author’s note: In typical Pakistani fashion, the officer is saying that this system is still being worked on and may not see service anytime soon].
Question: Sir, will China buy JF-17s?
Answer: Yes of course, they have announced it already.
References
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?10830-JF-17-related-discussion-Jan-Dec-2010&p=184158#post184158
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?10830-JF-17-related-discussion-Jan-Dec-2010&p=184275#post184275
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?10830-JF-17-related-discussion-Jan-Dec-2010&p=184285#post184285
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?10830-JF-17-related-discussion-Jan-Dec-2010&p=184318#post184318
PLA-MKIISallam vikas, there is just an incredible amount of data coming out. I was very happy to see Eagle Hannan’s posts. I’m trying to summarize everything valuable. It seems some of the forums have better info than Jane’s on a host of issues.
PLA-MKIIAgree with Jawad, its not possible for Israel to do this alone. In fact, I doubt if it actually took place, if they would participate. This may be more like Gulf War I. I hope it doesn’t happen though.
PLA-MKIIOkay, so we have a couple of theories on the thread so far.
1. Its a tin foil hat conspiracy.
2. Its a plane dumping fuel.
3. Its a rare phenomena related to air condensation
4. Its related to the US government and UFOs somehow ??
5. Its a prank by none other than USAF personnel.
I wonder what Plato would have said about it. As for me, I am most convinced of by #3 (but still have an open mind and am open to other possibilities).
PLA-MKIIGents, you must remember that the weather conditions in Zhuhai this time round was exceedingly humid. Thus the overly visible vortex.
On another note, there are two very interesting posts on pakdef:
1. Munir (the original PLA on Keypub) writes about how the aileron and flaps are different from the F-16’s flaperons and why that makes sense on the JF-17.
2. A first hand account from Eagle Hanan who can speak Chinese and Urdu and talked with everyone and anyone. He has had a first hand look at the bird including the innards. We’re all waiting for his pics, videos and analysis.
PLA-MKIIThis is complete BS, the PAF have not been ‘gifted’ 4 L-15s. There’s currently only 6 prototypes, of which 4 are actually flying examples! The L-15 is still in developmental stages, and hasn’t even been confirmed to be taken up by the PLAAF yet. It will be quite some time before the PAF recieve any, assuming they get any at all.
I never said transferred. I said gifted. When the gift arrives is another question I never claimed to answer. Further I called it a rumor. It may or may not be accurate.
PLA-MKIIDon’t know if you guys have noticed Chinese warplanes visiting Iran.
Pictures depict Chinese Flankers in Iran, possibly a stopover after exercises in Turkey. The stopover would be interesting as the flankers would not need them between Turkey and China, so possibly also a diplomatic message. These are some of the rare images of Chinese warplanes outside of China and comes at a time when US, Western and Israeli militaries are building up a military, political and economic frenzy similar to the one before Gulf War II.
http://www.grandestrategy.com/2010/10/chinese-warplanes-in-iran.html
Thought it might help the debate here.
PLA-MKIIEuh… why is a perfectly logical explanation not satisfactory? Unless you WANT to believe, of course :rolleyes:
Arthur, don’t blame my intentions please. My point is that it is one possible explanation that is not solid enough to claim as the sole truth. Otherwise we could while away almost anything on the basis of a “rare phenomenon”. I saw a plane, or did I? Maybe I’m suffering from hallucinations. Maybe I didn’t see a plane, I saw a donkey. No wait, maybe it was a rare phenomena where my mind has tricked me into believing the plane was a donkey. No? Or maybe its a mirage? Or wait, maybe its just a skilfully altered video. 😮
I actually don’t have an opinion on whether or not chemtrails exist or not. I’ve simply got an open mind and like to look at all sides. If it helps, I’ve argued with chemtrail believers against believing what I’ve described to them as conspiracy theories.
but if you want to believe I’m biased, feel free to paint me black. I’d say that I wouldn’t blame you, given how common conspiracies are at the abject denigration of searching for evidence from the part of the world I’m from.
PS: Interesting, this is my 777th post.
PLA-MKIIThe Pakistani Mirage looks remarkably clean and well maintained for such an old bird.
Here is anther one, top view.
Photo credit:-
http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/shinecommerce/30629.html?p=1&t=2
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