von PerthesWP – have you, or anyone else, got an image of this ‘star wheel’ that they could post? I can soon tell you if it is the relic we have.
Geoff.
von PerthesSound job Kev!
Geoff
(Wanted – mother-sitter for 15th April – must have plenty of patience & GSOH)
von PerthesWhen she’s good she’s good, when she’s bad she’s better 😮 :dev2: :diablo: :dev2: 😀
von PerthesFlood,
‘The Defiant File’ lists units that the Defiant served with, and gives the s/n of the aircraft that served with that unit, but there is no list or definative mentioning of the air forces that the Defiant served with other than the RAF.
The Egyptian AF Defiants are mentioned briefly ‘ …and in 1949, during the Arab-Israeli War, the Royal Egyptian Air Force had a target tug flight on strength equipped with four Defiants (unservicable).’
I can tell you that DR944 & DR945 were used by the USAAF. The relevant section of DR944’s entry reads – ‘deld to 46 MU 9.8.42; USAAF Bovingdon (no 11 CCRC) 1.9.42; 10 MU 7.7.44.’ That for DR945 has ‘deld to 46 MU 9.8.42; USAAF Bovingdon (No 11 CCRC) 1.9.42 coded JW-U; to RN charge at 10 MU 12.12.44.’ ‘The Defiant File’ even has a photo of DR945 complete with Stars & bars.
Jagan,
Regarding the Fairey Battle in Indian service, ‘The Battle File’ does list exports, which includes the following ‘One Battle and three Battle TT target tugs were sent to India in 1942 and were used for target towing duties at the Anti-aircraft School at Karachi. The Battle was K7627, and the Battle TTs were L5661, L5663, and L5726.’
The entry for K7627 reads’ 63 sqn 12.12.37; 12 ERFTS 5.1.39; 15 FTS 4.9.39; 1 FTS 26.10.39; undercarriage collapsed after landing Netheravon, 16.4.41; ROS; Rosenfield 30.3.42; 9 MU 1.7.42; 18 MU 22.7.42; 215 MU 7.8.42; EO Glasgow 11.8.42; to SAAF 11.8.42; to India 30.1.43.’
That for L5661 reads ‘4 BGS 13.5.40; Rosenfield 10.11.41; 18 MU 23.3.42; 215 MU 31.5.42; EO Glasgow 10.8.42; to SAAF 18.8.42 as 1062; to India 30.1.43; 22 AACU. Undercarriage collapsed on landing Drigh Road 3.3.44.’
That for L5663 goes ‘2 AACU 18.5.40; undercarriage collapsed on landing Cleave, 11.12.40; ROS; overshot landing, swung and hit obstacle, St Eval, 13.1.41; Fairey 3.3.41; 7 BGS 8.6.41; 38 MU at 31.12.41; 2 AACU 27.3.42; LEP 28.3.42; 1 PATP 23.5.42; to SAAF 30.6.42; to India 1.12.42.’
And finaly L5726 ‘4 BGS 21.6.40; 4 AOS at 31.12.42; Rosenfield 17.1.42; 27 MU 1.5.42; 215 MU 23.5.42; Rosenfield 4.6.42; 3 PATP 23.6.42; to SAAF 19.7.42 as 1058; to India 2.11.42; 22 AACU, fumes entered cockpit, bellylanded near Drigh Road, 19.2.43.’
Geoff.
von PerthesHow about the people who were reponsible for scrapping some very historic & now extremely rare/extinct Luftwafe aircraft stored in the UK, in the late forties/early fifties.
If you’ve read ‘War Prizes’ by Phil Butler (MCP) you’ll know what I mean. For example we could have had a genuine Battle of Britain Me110 (shot down 21/7/40) at Hendon now if it hadn’t been scrapped in 1947/48, along with a Ju88A-5 (landed in error at Lulsgate Bottom 23/7/41), a Ju290 survived until at least August 1947!, and several He219s were also scrapped in the 1947/48 period. And What about the Ju88G taken to Shoeburyness in March 1950 for firing trials, or the Do217M that survived until 1955!!!
Read the book & weep for what we might have been able to see today.
Geoff.
von PerthesJagan,
The two units below are the only two RAF units to use the Defiant in India that I know of, and the serial numbers given are those listed by ‘The Defiant File’ as having served with them. The ‘Struck off charge’ (SOC) dates are the dates they were SOC RAF charge. Many have the same date (30-11-44 etc.) and presumably represent a phasing out of the type.
None of the Defiants below are listed as having served with the Indian Air Force however. In fact ‘The Defiant File’ fails to list ANY Defiants that served with other air forces. One clue that might be worth following up is that a number of the Defiants below are listed as ‘Presumably Struck off charge 1-1-47’ (I’ve listed them as ‘SOC 1-1-47?’). No 22 AACU disbanded on the 1-4-47, being at the time part of No 2 (Indian) Group RAF, which in May 1947 became responsible for all RIAF training. The units Operations Record Book (ORB) ends on the 20-6-47.
Now the question is does the fact that the Defiant served with No 22 AACU in No 2 (Indian) Group RAF qualify the Defiant as having served with the Indian Air Force, or were some of the Defiants that survived until January 1947 brought back on charge by the RIAF after independence as target tugs or in some other capacity?
No 1 Air Gunnery School (India) – AA371 SOC 1-1-47?, AA401 SOC 30-11-44, AA470 SOC 1-1-47?, AA499 SOC 30-11-44, AA511 SOC 30-11-44, AA531 SOC 30-11-44, AA575 SOC 30-11-44, AA587 SOC 30-6-44, AA614 SOC 4-12-44, AA618 SOC 30-11-44.
No 22 Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit – AA368 SOC 1-1-47?, AA370 SOC 30-11-44, AA372 SOC 30-11-44, AA382 SOC 30-11-44, AA398 SOC 12-7-45, AA399 SOC 30-11-44, AA404 SOC 27-12-45, AA406 SOC 30-11-44, AA409 SOC 26-7-45, AA412 SOC 30-11-44, AA421 SOC 5-1-45, AA444 SOC 26-7-45, AA447 SOC 12-12-44, AA472 SOC 27-12-45, AA473 SOC 26-7-45, AA474 SOC 30-11-44, AA476 SOC 28-2-46, AA482 SOC 29-4-44, AA483 SOC 26-7-45, AA484 SOC 10-1-46, AA490 SOC 1-1-47?, AA493 SOC 30-11-44, AA502 SOC 28-12-44, AA503 SOC 15-4-45, AA505 SOC 30-11-44, AA510 SOC 2-8-45, AA538 SOC 15-4-45, AA550 SOC 30-11-44, AA567 SOC 31-5-45, AA573 SOC 2-8-45 , AA589 SOC 27-12-45, AA591 SOC 21-6-45, AA593 SOC 30-11-44, AA594 SOC 1-1-47?, AA616 SOC 26-4-45, AA617 26-7-45, AA622 SOC 21-11-45, AA623 SOC 1-1-47?, AA624 SOC 9-8-45, AA625 SOC 26-7-45, AA626 SOC 29-3-45, AA656 SOC 30-11-44, DR947 SOC 24-6-44, DR983 SOC 6-7-44, DR988 SOC 1-1-47?, DR991 SOC 29-6-45, DS123 SOC 28-12-44, DS130 SOC 31-5-45, DS135 SOC 28-12-45, DS142 SOC 27-2-45, DS143 SOC 1-1-47, DS146 SOC 21-6-45, DS148 SOC ??, DS155 SOC 1-1-47?, DS158 SOC 31-5-45.
K8310, as depicted in Mark12s image, was the prototype Defiant and was broken up in the U.K. on the 29-4-42. The choice of s/n is interesting, and I wonder why they didn’t use the s/n of a Defiant that went out to India?
Still I hope the above gives you some food for thought. If you have any further questions do let me know.
Geoff.
von PerthesFrom ‘The Defiant File’ (Air-Britain)
‘Target tug Defiants were taken on charge by the Indian Air Force after the war…..’ and ‘This or one of the Indian Air Force units may well have been the last ever operator of the Boulton Paul Defiant, and the owner of the last Defiant to fly.’
Geoff
von PerthesLast year someone turned up at our museum looking for the Aerojumble!!!
von PerthesNo problem Dave.
Geoff.
von PerthesJust released by the Battle of Britain Historical Society
‘Funding Update – why we need more money
Having taken professional advice which was based on experience with other monuments, the Appeal Committee budgeted £40,000 for a “dowry” required by Westminster City Council to undertake to maintain in perpetuity the Monument.
Unfortunately, because the Victoria Embankment roadway in front of the Monument site has been designated a “Red Route”, responsibility for the pavements around the site is shared between Westminster City Council and Transport for London. This has complicated every stage in the process of gaining consent for the construction of the Monument and decisions which could and should have been taken in weeks or months were delayed by over a year. Transport for London seemed to lack staff with the knowledge, skills and motivation to reach reasonable decisions in reasonable time.
Although the Planning Consent from Westminster City Council had been obtained in January 2004, it was conditional on the signing of a Section 106 Agreement which included the “dowry” for Monument’s maintenance in perpetuity. Transport for London failed to draft the Section 106 Agreement, which should have been agreed and signed by all parties within the six month statutory period. It then took Transport for London a further five months (that is eleven months in all) to produce their draft for the City Council to approve. By then the “dowry” sum for maintenance of £178,000 was required, which was then raised within a week to £205,000, more than five times greater than those previously quoted for other monuments.
On top of all this, the Monument Trustees were told that the construction work could not start on site until the Section 106 Agreement was signed. Intensive negotiations between the Committee and Westminster City Council have reduced the sum substantially but within the same Section 106 Agreement there is a further demand for a bond of £235,000 (athough this sum will reduce as the work progresses).
Transport for London failed to give our Contractor the go-ahead to start on site until Friday 21 January, six months after the end of the “statutory period”. This has led to a three weeks delay in starting the works, which threatens to increase construction and contract management costs, in addition to the increased costs of the “dowry” demanded by the City Council.
It is the judgement of the Appeal Committee, based upon professional advice, that these delays arise purely from maladministration. The high cost of the “dowry” seems to be a feature of dealing with a monopoly (tax financed) supplier. However, we now face a serious overrun on costs and a very demanding construction schedule to allow unveiling to take place, as arranged, following The Battle of Britain Thanksgiving Service at Westminster Abbey on 18 September this year, and have had to resume fundraising to meet those costs.’
von PerthesDave,
If you try the contact email address at the bottom of the page I gave you, my mate Henry Boot will be able to help you I’m sure, especially if you are able to supply info in return. ‘Your’ Typhoon may be one of the known ones, & so would not be on the list I gave which only contains those presentation typhoons whose s/n are not at present known.
Three ‘Fiji’ Typhoons whose s/n ARE known are-
Fiji V – EK286 – no sqn listed in Air-Britain, SOC 31.8.46
Fiji VI – EK287 – 3 Tactical Exercise Unit, 55 OTU, SOC 28.5.45
Fiji VII – EK192 – no sqn listed, SOC 29.11.45
Geoff.
von PerthesHi!
Try here-
Falconwood Transport & Military Bookshop
5 Falconwood Parade, The Green, Welling, Kent DA16 2PL
Telephone / Fax: 020 8303 8291
Email: [email]falconw@globalnet.co.uk[/email]
Opening times: Thursday, Friday, Saturday, 9.30 – 5.30 Other times by appointment. World wide mail order. Lists issued annually. Aviation, Military, Naval, Motoring, Railways. 10,000 secondhand specialist stock. Specialities: Aviation, World War I, Military, Vehicle & A.F.V. Easy parking (no yellow lines). Nearest railway station Falconwood, then B16 Bus (3/4 minute ride) towards Bexley Heath.
Geoff.
von PerthesThanks again for the good wishes, and to Ian for the offer of a lift. We’ll have to see nearer the time if I’ll be able to go, as I may be needed at the museum that weekend.
Geoff.
von PerthesDave,
It seems 32 Typhoons were ‘presented’, including the following for which the s/n are unknown.
ASTRIDA
BELLOWS BRAZIL [7 others in addition to JP918 and JP919]
DE BRUYNE
FIJI CIVIL SERVICE
FIJI VIII and X
GAMBELA
HLABEZULU
KASAI
LOMANI
MATABELE
MOGI
REV GRENFELL
SAIO
VAN GELA
WINSTON CHURCHILL
See this page for more info & a contact email address to try (at bottom of page) http://www.sturtivant.freeserve.co.uk/spitfire/
Geoff.
von PerthesI shan’t be able to make the forum meet on the 20th, thanks for the offer of a lift Andy, as it’s the weekend before the museum opens for 2005 on Easter Sunday, so I expect that I’ll be busy helping with any last minute work.
Maybe some of the Southern forumites could have a forum meet at the museum??
Geoff.
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