mack8I don’t know if any MiG29s were lost in A2A engagements. a total of 17 MiG29s were lost in the 1991 war, 4 damaged, 4 flew to Iran, and afterwards Iraq had only 11 remaining (one had been lost in an accident in 1990, belonging to 39th squadron). The Iraqi air force suffered an enormous loss rate to US air attacks and the HAS were mostly useless for defence (exception being some of the shelters in Balad). Iraqi fighter interceptors flew without GCI (very effective US Jamming) and Iraq had only very antiquated high altitude SAMS (SA-2) which were completely useless (although Iraq did expend 90%+ of its SA-2 missiles in 1991 without shooting down anything AFAIK!!)… postwar they began converting the few remaining missiles for surface to surface use.
The Evacuation of the aircraft was covered by careful diversions using MiG25s and other aircraft as well as direct escorts of the aircraft to the Iranian border.
Many of the losses incurred in 1991 (e.g. the MiG23s shot down flying out of H3 towards Iran) were unarmed aircraft with multiple drop tanks, but the fighter covers / diversions did not work in those instances… In many other instances the diversions / escorts did their job and managed to assist the aircraft in reaching Iran safely (close to 140 aircraft).
covering the evacuation was tasked to MiG23ML / MiG25s. The mirages were completely “jammed” as their systems were obviously all exposed to the allies and the MiG29 / MiG21s were only of use in point defence use with GCI which in the circumstances wasn’t available…
Very interesting. Regrading the SA-2 , wasn’t there a claim of an F-14 shot down with such a missile ( it was on a recon mission afaik)? Was there something else that shoot it down?
Anyway , since this topic is more of an ATL , i’m curious what would be your take on the IrAF (the real one , OTL) if let’s suppose Saddam says right , let’s give these american infidels a nice surprise a la israeli, an all out air attack on any air bases and other important assets in range on say February 13.
Any sort of an idea how far could the IrAF attack, and what would be the result of such an attack? ( if i’m correct, most of the “allied” aircraft were pretty much in the open on their airfields, isn’t it ?)
Thanks.
mack8You mean revisionism is fascinating! All the visual ID’s recounted here were all made up? Really? Was Rodriguez battling a “speck on his Windscreen”:rolleyes:
Rodriguez – MiG-29 engagement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epQoceuzuJA&t=31m33s
Pitts – MiG-25 engagement.
You expect me (or anyone with half a brain for that matter) to just blindly believe the good ol’ yankee’s claims, as they always tell the truth and nothing but the truth, and they never twist and turn facts to suit them, and they always show chivalrous respect for their opponents? Right. Well, suit yourself, i’d rather put an ear to what the other side says too.
mack8So, the engagement between F-15s and two low altitude MiG-25s, who reportedly used tactics and countermeasures that allowed them to survive several attacks before being shot down (again, this is one of the episodes shown on History Channel), did that really happened? Were they shot down?
Also from your list , does it means NO MiG-29s were shot down at all? (i think western sources cite something like 5 or more , while russian ones speak of perhaps two shot down BVR)
Thanks.
mack8that engagement famous because it never happened AFAIK! Iraqis joke that “rodriguez was battling a speck on his windscreen”
Really?! Please do tell more, it’s fascinating. They made a History Channel episode about that engagement! (and about the F-111 maneuver “kill” which never happened, the Mirage flew safely back to base…) Were there any MiG-29s lost that day even? Also would you have by any chance a list with the 23 iraqi aircraft reckoned to have been actually shot down? Thanks.:)
mack8Actually it is working out quite well, with all the countries in Southeast Asia begging to host US Navy fleets.
China makes the US containment possible by antagonizing everyone of its bordering neighbors while supporting rogue states like Pakistan and North Korea.
Had China been “reasonable” or did nothing, the US would have found it hard to contain China. But it is none other than China’s actions that drive China’s neighbors into the arms of the US.
Rubbish, please do tell who is China “antagonizing” again? Or are you talking about corrupt and vassal governments in that area who bark (at US command) at China like one of those little pathetic dogs and cry ” oh the big evil China!” whenever China tells them to shove it and get lost? Study the past decades and see who exactly is the aggressor on the world stage between China and the US.
mack8US of A has no friends, only interests. US of A has a vested interest in maintaining a conflictual and destabilized situation in Asia (and elsewhere) and the excuse of “threat” nations to maintain it’s political dominance, actual military occupation/bases and enourmous amounts of weapon sales to those countries unfortunate enough to have been caught as mere pawns in the US asian/global dominance game ( SK, Japan, Taiwan etc.).
US of A does not wish an amiable conclusion of the SK/NK issue for instance , or China/Taiwan , not to mention these recent island claims disputes ( strangely, you suddenly have these disputes , and then the US of A “knight” jumping in with their military bases in the Philippines and elsewhere, ostensibly for “protection” and “stability”… coincidence?)
In fact you can be damn sure that they do their best to sabotage any such efforts (the irrational embargo against North Korea comes to mind, subjecting the peoples there to increasing hardship -and you can bet all kinds of sabotage actions- which make the leadership more paranoid to keep on to power, which makes them look more “loony”, which serves perfectly well the US interests in the region).
mack8Nazgul (for air defence) rulez!:D
mack8Iraqi MiG29s did not have any R73s… only R60MK / R27R.
Yes i know, i was just assuming in this ATL that a better IrAF had them for their MIG-29s.:)
(if they actually had R-73 in OTL , Sayood and his wingman would have probably shot down Rodriguez and the other one in that “famous” engagement!)
mack8300 aircraft to be contracted ON TOP of those already on order (trainers, Sukhois etc.)? Would be very interesting the breakdown. Any idea or speculation ?:)
mack8What MIG-23 kill, is it the AMI Tornado? Do you have more info about Iraqi kills during 1991? ( should be 4 or 5, right ?)
As to the topic at hand, any idea how many planes did the iranians lost during 1980-88? Thank you.
mack8And if that were true you’d probably be speaking German right now. That is if your grandparents could prove they were pure Aryans. Otherwise you probably wouldn’t have ever been born. You can hate anyone you want as much as you want, just try not to look too foolish in the process.
And if you didn’t, YOU would probably speak german and waving swastika flags too, you know ( not that some over there wouldn’t like to anyway). But i digress. It’s much more “fun” sticking with the image of a hardy squadron of iraqi MiG-29’s shooting down F-15s and F-16s left and right with their R-73s in a blaze of glory.:)
mack8Actually , i would bet anything you want that the Israeli destroyed less Syrian aircraft than they CLAIM. That’s the thing , claims and actual kills are different matters, in pretty much every air war to date. If they claim 80 or something like that, i over-generously give them 40 to 50 at most, although i won’t be surprised with a figure 1/3 of the claims.
Also, you can be pretty certain that perhaps some of the israeli aircraft claimed as lost from SAMs or accidents might have been shot down by MiGs, a figure almost certainly higher than 0!
On a parallel issue, in the Gulf war the americans an their “allies” CLAIMED something like 45 kills , however reputable research (as in, trying to look at the things from the iraqi side too), show about 23 iraqi aircraft shot down ( not sure if helicopters included), with perhaps 4 or 5 iraqi kills. As you can see, they are not grossly exagerated figures, but very realistic ones considering the circumstances.
I’m pretty sure a similar thing must have happened in the various Arab-Israeli wars. It’s common sense.
mack8Give the huge numerical disparity, probably the outcome of the Gulf Air War would have been the same if IrAF would have been trained and led approaching Israeli AF capabilities. Difference of course, would have been a few hundred extra US and “allied” aircraft destroyed- especially if they attack first in an all out blow on say January 13- and some damage to ground installation/troops in the area. You would have today books like “Iraqi MIG-29 aces of the Gulf War ” or something like that, which would be quite cool.:)
Would be interesting if, having had the Army trained roughly on par with the AF in this alternate scenario, giving the far heavier losses the americans and their “allies” would have had, what would the ground campaign look like.
mack8From this great idea will not give up, it can be postponed to a later date.
Multirole fighter superior MiG-29, F-18, Typhoon, Rafale, J-31, J-20 and able to conduct successful combat with the F-35, F-22 and T-50.
It will have great export prospects, especially if the cost of approximately 50% – 60% of the T-50.
Beginning full-scale development of the fighter can be expected after the start of production of T-50, 2015 – 2018. First flight of 2020 – 2023. Series production of 2027 – 2030.
Developer – United Aircraft Corporation (ОАК)
Thank you, that is very interesting. Is it twin engined? Also it appears to have all moving tails, like T-50, right ? Anyway , don’t want to ask too many questions for obvious reasons, but i assume there is some good basis for that artist impression, correct? 🙂
mack8LMFS? Wasn’t it said to be cancelled as all money are focused on T-50? Will LMFS be developed too then? Any idea of the timescale and who is going to build it ? Thanks.
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