mack8Sorry for this irrelevant post , the topic/forum page didn’t updated properly when i made the previous post couple of hours ago… strangely it works now.:confused:
mack8Regarding the discussion of claims vs. losses in the OTL Gulf War, i’ve just read some very interesting stuff in “Iraqi fighters 1953-2003”. Apparently, the list of aircraft reckoned to have been actually shot down by the americans (mostly) is : 2 MiG-21, 2 MiG-23, 3 MiG-29, 2 MiG-25, 4 Mirages, 2 Su-22 ( plus 2 after the war) and 2 Su-25 for a total of 17. Sadly , no such info on eventual helicopters losses, or the claimed Il-76 ( but the book is about fighters and ground attack aircraft only).
I am assuming that the balance to 23 kills as apparently stated in an IAPR article (sadly , i don’t have it-does anyone has access to it by any chance ?), must be made by helos and perhaps that transport (and/or perhaps couple of additional fighters/ground attack aircraft, imo the number of MiG-23s shot down seems very low, maybe there were couple shot down during the evacuation as well?)
Anyway, the more i read about IrAF , the more i realize they were not slouches as portrayed in the western media, but they fared honorably given the conditions. Some “cool” anecdote: During the evacuation to Iran, Su-24s were bounced by some F-15s, while flying (presumably) very low and fast . The americans fired 3 AIM-7M and 4 AIM-9M without touching any of them, all the missiles being decoyed by the automatic countermeasure systems of the Sukhois!
mack8Honestly, whatever you do, get some nukes. That why it is doubtful anyone will touch you again (as long as you don’t do something really stupid, of course). While i’m obviously against WMDs, as long as they are already introduced ( and allowed!) in ME from about 40 years ago, go for it. How i see it : right now be friends and humble with all the big boys, while building up your military as much as you can (air defence and air force, and any long range strike capability you can get, primarily), get that oil $$$ flowing ( build big monetary reserves too). Have half a dozen civilian nuclear power plants built by the russians or canadians or whatever, and when the time comes, boom, take them over and quickly assemble a few “dirty ” bombs” as a deterence , then go from there with weaponization.
Of course, if somehow in the future things in the ME will actually come to a realistic conclusion ( wishful thinking , i know) , the threats of conflict all but evaporated and a general disarming ( especially WMDs) takes place , then of course, you’ll have to eliminate them too.
Anyway, i should really take it easy with this alternate reality thing, but you know , the mind flies… :p
mack8You have no idea what it is like to be in America or be an American.
Of course not, thank god for that! You can call me biased and believing every stereotype, well, you know , having seen many specimens of your compatriots in “action ” on this internet over the last years, i don’t need to believe any stereotypes. It is bewildering and downright scary what you can see coming from the mouths (so to speak) of a so called “civilized” society’s members. Just looking around here on this mere aviation forum, only the mere mention of the words “arab” or “chinese” demask your illustrious compatriots as fitting stereotypes.
Oh an btw my frustration (not bias) comes from having witnessed in the last decade or so what your “democratic” and “free” country is all about, the wars , the suffering they subject millions of peoples to, the injustice, and in general the big guy (US) abusing the small guy just because he can, that what’s driving my frustration up. Btw, as i said, i’m caucasian, i live in western Europe, and no i’m not muslim ( or any religion thankfully), coming from an ex-communist country, to answer in advance. Just like no one would believe the communist propaganda, i don’t believe yours.
Anyway, going way OT topic here again. Just remember, there are two sides of a story. Don’t be fooled.
mack8With all due respect, but that’s rubbish. I would feel much safer going to China than your “wonderful ” America, and this coming from a caucasian! (in fact i would love to go to China one day). Guns everywhere available to every washout, violence (police, gangs etc.), xenophobia, racism, far right-wingism are every day characteristics of their society. Which characteristics lead to their external policies (because politicians are a product of this or that society, they grow like everyone else in specific environments), the wars (2 millions dead in the last 20 years, remember?) , the killings and kidnapping of peoples without even the most basic morals, let alone abiding by any sort of international laws they so brag about others to respect, the continued stirring of conflictual spots for profit and gain, just to name a few. So yes US is far more dangerous than China, and are far more likely to start WW3 (paradoxically, not because of the profit and gain driven interests , they wouldn’t want that, but we’re talking about all kinds of far right wing nutters infiltrated at every level of their society, including-critically- the military).
I hope the chinese are indeed building a secret arsenal of WMDs so that if worse comes to worse and the americans decide to try to “liberate” them in an all out war, they can show their secret card and say ” you can try to destroy us, but we’ll take you down with us. Your choice”
mack8Nothing has been announced yet, but the brochure says “expanded BVR engagement zones.”
Naturally Cuda will be treated with a completely different level of skepticism …
Of course, because it comes from Lockheed Martin! 😀
mack8250 JF-17 and 150(!) J-10 for Pakistan? I’ll believe it when i see it, especially in regards to the J-10, i thought the numbers vehiculated are 150 JF-17s ( to replace older Mirage/Q-5/F-7 types) and 36 J-10 (FC-20), plus the F-16s. I find very possible they will get some J-31s in the twenties though.
mack8AIM-9M production ended 15-20 years ago? AIM-9X didn’t reach IOC until 2003 – ten years ago. Full rate production was approved in 2004. What do you think was being built up to then?
I was referring to both. Would be interesting to find out when was the last lot of AIM-9Ms built for the US (because most likely that’s where the missiles will come from). As for the AIM-7M, the newest ones must be indeed about 20 years old.
mack8mack8mack8The issue with buying both MiG29M and SU30 is delivery times from what I understand. Iraq does not have a single air defence fighter at the moment, and the first F16s won’t be in Iraq for another year… and SU30s can’t be built very quickly… whereas I understand there’s a batch of undelivered MiG29M/M2 for Syria that the Iraqis can take up…
Weren’t the first F-16s supposed to arrive in Iraq next month?:confused: Christ it takes LM 4 years to build a damn F-16?! They’re dragging their feet big time are they.
Btw, the pic you posted of the M1 climbing on a MiG-25, it’s a PS.
mack8Regarding why the possible buy of MiG-29M2 and Su-30MK2. Let’s face it the F-16 IQ on order now are basically useless in the contemporary world. They will be so downgraded and stuffed with bugs, and they will fly with refurbished outdated AIM-7 and AIM-9Ms, whose production stopped, i don’t know, 15-20 years ago(!), that it ain’t funny. I find it actually humiliating, i don’t know why the iraqi government buys these very expensive junks, i guess only to appease the americans…
Btw i would also not discount that they will be specifically tempered with so that if the israelis will want to carry an attack against Iran through iraqi airspace (or even on Iraq proper), the F-16 or their weapons systems will be disabled on command.
The MiG and Su offer a capabilities from another world comparably. First there will be no restriction what Iraq can and cannot do (or touch!) with them. Second they will offer a full array of AAMs (including R-77) and AGMs, far exceeding whatever those F-16 will come with. It is a HI-LO mixture , with the Su-30MK2 (to be chosen probably because of the lower price) being sort of a poor man F-15E, and offering a decent strike or deterence capability. Also, Iraq should be well versed with using russian gear and knowing it’s pros and cons. (and if what sheytanelkebir says in other places is true, then perhaps the iraqis are not that dissatisfied with russian gear).
Oh btw, looking at pics of iraqi aircraft taken after the american invasion, and seeing all those aircraft vandalized by “liberating” thugs (some of them with inestimable historical value!), i think the iraqis should ask for compensation for each an every one vandalized. All things being equal, many of them could have been refurbished and today Iraq would have already one or two squadrons capable of QRA missions.
mack8Here is the link to one of the the iraqi perspective projects volumes:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ada484530
Regrading the evacuation to Iran, i understand that such a gamble was taken because evacuating to Jordan would have put those aircraft within easy striking distance of the israelis. I guess Saddam was expecting them to enter the war at any minute (which was his objective)
mack8Haavarla, that second picture is the “famous” (and stupid!) pic of a Skyflash ( aircraft behind is a Tornado ADV) that appears on Google if you search R-77.:confused:
Anyway, back to the MiG-29 , regarding the iraqi ones, they have moved the R-27 pylons midwing so that they can attach drop tanks on the inner pylons for longer patrol /intercept range, correct?
mack8Whatever “some PLA general” said (or some claim he said) pales in comparison with the constant mouthfoaming heard from the americans, and it’s not just the typical far right wing mostly irrelevant netizens you can see at their “best” on the www, we’re talking about high ranking government officials and high ranking military officers! They have a clear visceral bolshevik-style hate for China, but i guess it’s normal for them as they always have to hate “someone” (usually based on the colour of their skin, but there are other factors). In fact they are pretty similar to the North Koreans , almost the same type of blatant and grotesque propaganda. Put them side by side, and read a bit from the wonderful and “free” american press, and see what i mean.
Now, i don’t remember seeing anything like this from China’s leaders or military. I ask now, who is more unstable and dangerous to peace in the world? Who started ALL the major wars in the last decades, i ask ? Who killed or contributed to the killing ( by my estimate) of perhaps 2 MILLIONS peoples in the last decades, i ask ? Hint, it is NOT China.
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