Well in some senses he was right, because the F-111K would have been quite an asset for Nato, but whether it was “necessary” rather than “desirable” is another matter! But Healey was desperately keen to promote the F-111’s assets as he had a hard time “selling” the idea to the Cabinet, and of course he was eventually thwarted. He almost resigned over the F-111 saga as he thought that the CAS would walk-out when he was informed that they wouldn’t be getting F-111, despite Healey promising him that they would.

The whole story is quite absurd. The Air Staff plucked TSR2’s specifications out of the air and Vickers were too misguided to ever tell them that what they wanted would take years to develop and would cost a fortune. English Electric tried to warn them but they were accused of being bitter because the contract had effectively gone to Vickers. The Government set-up a ridiculous management structure which didn’t actually manage anything, so nobody was in overall charge and – therefore – nobody ever had the power to say “no” to anything. Then, it eventually became clear that by the time it would have entered service, it wouldn’t even be needed. As Healey said, the tragedy is that it was ever started in the first place.

The question is if testing on the TSR2 had continued, what would have been learn’t that could not be learn’t from other better aeroplanes?
Proctor I suppose the simple answer is nothing, but XR219 and XR220 were complete and flyable, so it made perfect sense to get some use out of them. The aircraft systems were almost all new (digital computers, TFR etc.) but the engines were obviously the key pieces of equipment which would be needed for Concorde. They could have used the two aircraft to gather lots of data on sustained supersonic flight (at the time their practical experience of this regime was zero). If there was one aspect of the story that the Government did get wrong, then it was this one. They really should have used the two aircraft rather than simply dump them, but after so much money had been thrown at the project, you get the feeling that they just wanted to step-back and ensure that not another penny of Treasury money went on it. From what Jenkins said, he evidently thought that the test project would have gone the same way as the actual programme and ended-up costing 3-4 times the estimated amount!

I think a lot of what you have written is incorrect. I knew RPB and Jimmy Dell well and the TSR-2 was what the RAF wanted. I’m not sure where you have got your facts from but i can assure you as i know the RAF’s First selected TSR-2 rather well that you are wide of the mark.

Well no, that’s the accepted view but it’s wrong. The RAF didn’t want it, nor did the Government. If any of the many book, magazine and internet authors had done even a little bit of research they would have known this, but it’s far easier to simply regurgitate each other’s misinformation. This has what’s been going on for 40 years! Incidentally, RPB would be the last person to get an honest answer from – he was EE’s Chief Test Pilot… not much chance of an unbiased opinion there!

Nope, I guess the conspiracy theories will always persist. People like a good mystery even if there really isn’t one.

The idea that the US somehow forced Britain into dumping TSR2 and buying F-111 is nonsense. US officials are on record stating how keen Britain was to buy it, so they certainly didn’t have to try and make us. But the real conspiracy tale is the destruction of the aircraft and jigs. This story has gone on for over 40 years but nobody has ventured to pour scorn on it.

Simple fact is that BAC suggested that XR219 and XR220 should be kept flying to complete their basic flight testing. Made good sense and for a couple of million quid we would have got useful research data from the aircraft. Jenkins and Healey considered the idea but eventually said they didn’t want to spend any more money on TSR2, but if BAC wanted to fund the test programme, then they could do it.

So, rather than obsessively demanding that everything be destroyed, they actually agreed to let BAC keep two aircraft flying. It was BAC that chose not to. So the biggest conspiracy theory of all is utter nonsense, even though nobody ever says so. But the tales carry-on. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story eh?!

Fascinating old thread – thought I might resurrect it!

Some interesting comments here but a lot of misconceptions too. I’ve just finished my TSR2 book so I’ve been eating and sleeping TSR2 for weeks and weeks. It’s quite surprising how much nonsense has been written about the subject, particularly on the internet.

Anyway, in case it’s of interest to TSR2 addicts, here are some basic truths about the whole sorry saga:-

Denis Healey is not some “criminal” who should be insulted for what he did. Yes, he did recommend that TSR2 be cancelled but only after he’d secured the purchase of F-111. It was Healey who went to the RAF and asked them if there was any alternative to TSR2. The RAF said yes – the F-111. Healey assured them that’d he’d give them what they wanted and he fought hard to get it. In fact he almost resigned when F-111 was finally cancelled.

It was the RAF that abandoned TSR2 before the Government. Elworthy specifically stated on at least two occasions (as far back as 1964) that he no longer wanted it, and he wasn’t alone. So it’s complete nonsense to blame the saga on the Government.

It was hopelessly, hideously expensive. The country was bankrupt. Even if the Tories had won the election they would have still had to cancel TSR2. It was estimated (by some service chiefs) that it might have cost up to three times more than it was costing at the time of cancellation. Even the US wouldn’t have been able to afford that.

F-111 was cheaper, no matter what figures you choose to play with. But more importantly it could be bought on credit. This was the fundamental reason why the purchase was irresistible.

If TSR2 (or F-111) had entered service, the role for which they were intended (East of Suez) would have gone by the time they were declared operational. What supreme folly that would have been. Truth is that by the end of the 1960’s we didn’t even need a TSR2.

The aircraft’s systems had only completed 20 percent of the test programme. It’s anybody’s guess as to how the testing would have gone, but I think we can all imagine what might have happened. The engines were nowhere near production standard at the time of project cancellation. The landing gear hadn’t even been completely fixed.

The whole project was a non-starter. The Air Staff wanted a low-level strike aircraft and a high-level supersonic bomber all in one package. As if that wasn’t ambitious enough, they then cranked the top speed up to Mach Two and the low level capability down to 200ft! Nobody has a clue why the top speed was set so high but it was Vickers that encouraged the Air Ministry because they were too scared to ever say no (unlike English Electric). If top speed had been 1.7-1.9 the aircraft would have cost a fraction of the figures that had been reached by 1965.

Of course it’s more complicated than that but these are the key points. Many of the stories surrounding TSR2 just don’t have any foundation when you look into them. They’ve drifted around for years and people repeat them, embellish them, and so it goes on. It’s an interesting story and one which shows what a phenomenally impressive aircraft TSR2 might have been, given unlimited time and money. But it was way too much far too soon. Even though Mountbatten was a complete b*stard, he was actually right – the RAF should have bought the Buccaneer.

last IAD to have an Argus in the static display

Ahh yes – I went up to the airport to watch some of the show departures. The Argus went off, circled round and made a “fast” low fly-by from the east. Someone in the tower asked the crew for their postal address so that they could send-on all the popped rivets by post when they’d picked ’em all up!

It was me in the back of the Land Rover. As far as I can remember, you drove through with me in the back, I got out, and you turned-round to drive back through the other way? I must have got out to photograph the event! I certainly wouldn’t have been texting – don’t think I even knew what a mobile phone looked like back then, in fact I don’t think I even had a car at the time. I assume we must have been holidaying at Tregurrian again, so shortly after that photo was taken I would have no doubt had the joy of the long, long walk back right round the whole damned airfield, to Tregurrian. I must have been bonkers – the things you do to see planes eh?!