ChoxI can’t beleive I’m even reading this! To even think of equating the Venom (I can hardly keep my face straight while I type the name) with the Vulcan in terms of “significance” is probably the funniest thing I’ve ever read on here. Brightened-up a dull afternoon for sure!
ChoxOh dear – we’re getting very petty aren’t we ladies?
Firstly Otter I have no books to promote – I don’t get paid royalties on sales so I couldn’t care less who buys what. Sorry to burst your bubble, and maybe you could keep your nasty comments to yourself? Thanks.
Kev, I don’t need any lectures on the V-Force thanks very much. I would have thought it would go without saying that the V-Force comprised of more than Vulcans. Who knew?!:rolleyes: Incidentally, it’s worth remembering that the V-Force would have got to the heart of the Soviet Union long before SAC’s B-52’s, so they represented a deterrent threat which was out of all proportion to their actual numbers.
David, you’ve got a very strange understanding of how the nuclear deterrent worked. I thought anyone could grasp that a deterrent can only be judged to be a success if it isn’t actually used. Anyway, don’t take my word for it, maybe you could drop a line to RUSI and take it up with some suitably-qualified people there if you still don’t get it? Incidentally, you might also get someone to explain to you that the purchase of Polaris had nothing to do with any perceived obsolesence of the V-Force. I’d suggest buying a copy of my book on the V-Force but then Otter might self-impode at the very thought…:p
Now, any chance of getting back to 558? Still no sign of any alternative ideas for the aircraft’s future… *whistles*…
ChoxWith all due respect David, you’re talking utter claptrap. The Vulcan was designed to carry an atomic bomb to the heart of the Soviet Union and on the basis that the Soviets never launched an attack against the UK, one can only conclude that the Vulcan was, therefore, an outstanding success. The Venom, by comparison, was a derivative of a crude, under-powered first-gentration jet which was obsolete as soon as it entered service – if not before then. I’ve read some rubbish on these threads before, but really… Anyway, I don’t think any of this has anything to do with XH558!
ChoxExactly mjr, I thought it kinda went without saying but I think David was kinda stating the obvious.
Agreed that the Vulcan was no more significant than many other aircraft too, although I draw the line at the Venom – that’s the daftest thing I’ve heard in a long time. The Venom was obsolete as soon as it entered service. To suggest that it was in any way significant (apart from the fact that there were lots of ’em) was definitely comical though!
ChoxPS – David seems to have completely failed to grasp the concept of nuclear deterrence – but congratulations on today’s funniest line! I never thought I’d ever hear anyone suggest that the Vulcan should pale into significance when compared to the… er… Venom!:D
ChoxFair enough Mark, I take your points although I don’t agree with any of them. I don’t understand how you think getting the aircraft out of the UK would be “naive” when at the same time you also think that there’s even the slightest chance of a UK sponsor coming-up with cash along the lines you mention.
Okay, I could go through all your points and add my own thoughts but I guess we’d just go round in ever decreasing circles! In short, I can only refer you to my previous posts. Ignoring all the other points, the key issue is this – If you (and other people) think getting 558 out of the UK is wrong, naive, pointless, illogical or whatever, then what is the alternative?
The only possible outcome seems to be (based on previous posts here and elsewhere), retirement to a museum or host airfield, to be left in external storage (in the hope of eventual hangarage). Essentially, it would mean that after millions of pounds have been spent, the aircraft offers us no more than XL426 or XM655 (less in fact, as 655 does at least look like an operational Vulcan!). I just don’t see the logic in accepting this as an inevitability when (for the reasons I’ve explained) it doesn’t have to be.
Still, having said all this, I readily accept that 558 will not go to the US. I don’t imagine for a minute that such a plan would even be considered by TVOC (for reasons which I’ve explained in previous posts). Sadly, I’m one hundred percent sure that 558 will indeed end her days as a running ground exhibit and probably sooner rather than later. It’s a terrible shame but it seems inevitable. I think the very best we can hope for is that 558 manages to fly again next year but I don’t think even the most optimistic observer imagines there’s any hope of continuing beyond that stage – unless a miracle really does occur.
ChoxIt seems the earlier US proposals were based on unique business arrangements that may have never been deliverable.
Really? says who?
The viability of fundraising for the Vulcan in the USA would be next to zero
I agree – but it’s zero here too.
Auctioning off the paint scheme is a minor compromise
Minor? This is the old Sea Vixen argument. Some might think it’s acceptable but most (not least the HLF) would think it was a complete joke. Cold War educational artefacts can’t be tarted-up in Red Bull colours – thank heavens. Besides, what point would there be in covering a Vulcan in silly colours? A sponsor could paint a 737 much more cheaply and get a much better PR return. But in any case, the idea has already been ruled out.
improve its performance in the charity reporting and transparency of its operations
Exactly – it’s pointless (and vaguely insulting) to me making pleas for donations when huge sums of money appar to have simply disappeared in unspecified (and astonishingly large) salaries and expenses.
support the ongoing operation of the aircraft
I agree – but supporting the aircraft doesn’t mean supporting the same semi-obscured and unconvincing administration and PR/fundraising set-up, does it?
write to them privately airing your personal concerns
People have been doing that for a long time. It’s a pointless exercise. TVOC don’t even bother communicating with people when they don’t want to.
scare of more sponsors from being involved
There are no more sponsors to scare off – that much seems to be clear now. That’s the whole problem.
and is that what we really want, – for it to fail?
It already has failed – or at least it’s on the point of failing – but nobody has any suggestions as to what to do about it. Despite this, the very mention of the US just gets dismissed as being unrealistic. Personally I don’t see how shoving 558 into a field next to the Victor (there ain’t no hangar for ’em – they reserve that for their Hastings – sorry Halifax) at Elvington would be any sort of solution.
ChoxWell, as I said previously, if anyone can think of a more practical means of possibly keeping 558 flying, I’m sure we’d all like to hear about it…
The notion that it would be some sort of national crime if 558 went to the States is almost hilarious. Presumably then, these Vulcan enthusiasts would rather watch the aircraft slowly rot away in the corner of some British airfield (like so many other Vulcans have done) instead of taking the one remaining chance (albeit a slim one) of getting the aircraft into the air somehow? That’s absurd isn’t it? Likewise there’s no point in using the HLF as an excuse for a sudden burst of nationalism; as I said previously, I seriously doubt if HLF has any interest in the project now – if they did, I would imagine they’d be asking very serious questions as to what happened to the “touring exhibit” plan for which HLF provided the funding in the first place.
It’s all too easy to pick holes in the US option, especially when nobody seems to have any alternative solution. I don’t have any desire to see 558 disappear across the Atlantic, but I certainly don’t want to see the aircraft left to rust over here. Unfortunately, when all the carping and whining is put aside, it’s patently obvious that this is what is going to happen as nobody (particularly TVOC) has even considered the idea and everybody seems hell-bent on simply flogging the tired old donations angle until it is completely exhausted, at which stage the alternative options are… er, zero.
Oh, and bubbles, I think you’ll find (if you bother to read any of the posts before you reply) that you appear to be the one with personal grievances. I think you’ll find that I have simply been making observations and suggestions, offering my views and arguing my case. You don’t have to agree with me but perhaps you could stop the carping? It adds nothing to the debate.
ChoxWell we just go around in circles then, don’t we? I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but I’m well aware of how unlikely it is that the Vulcan would fare any better in the US. But as i also keep saying, if it is even a vague chance, then surely it has to be worth taking when there is absolutely no other alternative?
I just don’t get the logic of wringing one’s hands with despair, whining that the HLF has done this or that, or how various Vulcans have been left grounded in the US (which seems hardly surprising as they were delivered to become static exhibits in the first place!), as if taking 558 to the US is some sort of hair-brained idea. As I’ve said, it’s not crazy at all – it was a very real possibility many years ago and even if the aircraft simply ended-up stranded in some foreign field, at least the one remaining option would have been tried, plus there is always the hope of storing the aircraft in a country where the climate is kinder and where regulations don’t necessarily mean that a temporarily-grounded aircraft remains grounded forever. Yes, of course it’s a long shot but once again I have to ask what the alternative is? To do nothing? That seems to be what is going to happen so instead of simply trying to pick holes in my argument, how about some alternative solutions? The previous post sums it up nicely. Is “pots n kettles” the only “intelligent” contribution that anyone can come up with?
ChoxPie in the sky? Hmm, okay, how about simply issuing stupid pleas for donations every month in the vague hope that the money might miraculously appear. Sounds much more practical? Maybe not…
It’s not a bad idea at all, in fact it’s the only logical hope of ever getting XH558 into the air beyond 2009. As I keep saying, if it’s such a stupid idea, let’s hear an alternative? I haven’t heard a single suggestion which sounds even vaguely practical so far… not one…
More to the point, XH558 nealy went down the US path years ago when Walton considered handing-over the aircraft to Nasa. I know this because he told me so personally. So let’s not scoff at the idea as it’s always been a viable option and in the absence of anything better, I see no reason to change that view. Okay, I fully accept that it would be a technical nightmare to get the aircraft over to the US and it may well simply languish in a dusty field over there, but that’s got to be better than rusting in a British field isn’t it? At least there’s always the hope that the aircraft could possibly fly somehow in the US whereas there is a guaranteed 100-percent certainty that when 558 stops flying in the UK it will never have any chance of flying again. What if, by some miracle, it did go to an organisation like NTPS? So what? You seriously saying that it would be preferable to refuse an option like that so that 558 can rot in a field over here?!
Think the problem here is that people just won’t face reality. Rather than grasp at the one available straw and get the aircraft out of the UK while we can, they’d rather simply soldier-on in the hope that money will continue to trickle-in, when we all know that it’s not going to happen. The end result is that 558 becomes another rusting static/taxy exhibit, simply because people have been too scared to accept the reality of the situation. What kind of solution is that? Do nothing and hope for the best, or bite the bullet and get the aircraft out of the UK’s climate and officialdom while there’s an opportunity to do it? Okay, it might well result in failure but so what? The alternative is a guaranteed failure here.
As for HLF, my suspicion is that they have no interest in remaining involved in the aircraft’s future. TVOC have already completely failed to meet the terms of their agreement with HLF in any case. The comical notion of taking the aircraft around the UK as a Cold War educational exhibit was laughable right from the start. Besides, one would imagine that the HLF would support whatever plan looked like being the best hope of keeping the aircraft flying, even if it meant going to the US.
Okay, I accept that the US is a long shot but as I keep saying, there’s clearly no future for XH558 in the UK. It looks like getting the aircraft back into the air for just one more display season would be an utter miracle, so even the most optimistic supporter must accept that beyond 2009 the aircraft is doomed. So – to repeat what I said earlier – what point is there in simply continuing with the same old pleas for money? There’s a certain dark inevitability about all this. You can see how it’s going to go… The begging continues, the money trickles in, the aircraft appears at a few air shows next year, the money dries up, the aircraft is temporarily grounded pending further income and… quelle surprise, there is never enough money to get the aircraft back into the air ever again, as the longer it remains grounded, the more cash is required to get it back into a CAA-approved state. What a waste. What a farce.
ChoxFirebird, the funny thing about the US idea is that it’s not as far-fetched as people like to think it is. If you go back to the days before TVOC came along, David Walton had some serious discussions over possibly sending the aircraft to the US where it could have been used as a research support aircraft. Okay, I quite agree that shipping the aircraft and everything else to the US would be quite a task but it’s not such a wild notion, even if it ultimately amounted to nothing. Besides, as I keep saying, what is the alternative? Far as I can see, there isn’t one.
ChoxThink you’re right – these days kids like instant gratification so a ready-made model is ideal. Although some younger fellas still have an interest in plastic modelling, it’s become much more of a “serious” hobby for older people now, but surprisingly it’s doing remarkably well, thanks to the growing presence of short-run manufacturers and (relatively) cheap production for bigger manufacturers in China (until China starts hiking the prices!).
Mind you, although some of the diecast models are pretty rubbish, some of them are beautiful. I’ve got a couple of Corgi Buccaneers which I’m going to tart-up (fill the ghastly panel lines, repaint, add details) as they’re more accurate in outline than any of the 72nd scale plastic kits!
ChoxModelling is alive and well, it’s just that the sales have tended to shift away from the “pocket money” market towards older “serious” modellers who want higher-spec kits but who are also prepared to pay more for ’em. Having said that, some of the manufacturers are doing a great deal to spark new interest in the general market too.
In actual fact, it’s a great time for the more serious modeller as there are new kits appearing all the time, often of surprisingly obscure subjects.
Just one note of advice – be very wary of modelling forum sites like Britmodeller and ARC. Like most of these sites they are “one man” projects run by modellers and as such they don’t exercise any editorial control, so you can read all kinds of rubbish in the forum threads which isn’t necessarily true. They’re worth a look for snippets of information but be careful not to assume that just because you read something, it’s true!
Choxoops sorry, didn’t know it was a competition *rushes to count-up lifelong cat tally*
Choxoops sorry, didn’t know it was a competition *rushes to count-up lifelong cat tally*
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