Guys,

– Don’t think of government to government weapons sale/purchase as everyday retail sales with similar rules, ethics, perceptions and attitudes. Things are different in the arms sales world.

– This thread has gone too far off-topic. Last time I checked this was the RuAF thread. Open another thread if you want to discuss arms sales ethics and all that has nothing to do with this thread.

Thank you.

A good place to look:

http://www.korean-war.com/AirWar/index.html

It’s a pity GarryB isn’t around to join into the melee when the thread turns to such topics…;)

It is not a melee, more like a massala 🙂

Woaaaaah,

Scooter, you are trying to narrow it down to air-air combats while I am talking about overall performance of Western vs Eastern equipment in reply to your post below:

Which, clearly stated that Western Types overall have been more successful than there Soviet/Russian counterparts. Thus far I’ve seen nothing to lead me to believe that statement is not correct.

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Anyways, Here is what Soviet/Russian weapons have done to Western equipment:

Korean War………..US had High Kill to Loss Ratio

Really? Those propagandish claims have been recently toned down by the US itself. I suggest you do a research of that conflict instead of repeating decades-old lies. For a start here is a listing of US and other Western losses in that conflict: http://www.korean-war.com/AirWar/AircraftType-LossList.html

Vietnam War…………..About even early with a slight edge to the US. Which, drastically increased in the later stages – i.e. Top Gun, USAF Fighter Weapons School, etc.

Air -Air losses were a tiny percentage of overall losses. The Vietnamese did very well considering that they were using Mig-21s and even Mig-17s versus the latest and most modern US aircraft (F-4 etc.). Can you imagine the outcome if they were provided heavier fighters like Su-15, Mig-25 etc?

In any case,

US losses: over 2000 fixed wing and over 3000 helicopters.

I guess Soviet (and Chinese) weapons are no good….

Indian/Pakistan Wars…..to be honest not sure of US/Western vs Soviet Types Breakdown???

A lot of conclusions (some contradicting) can be made, however, if we concentrate on the top fighters of the opponents: Mig-21 beat F-104.
From the Pakistani side: their most successsfull fighter was (cough, cough) the Chinese copy of the Mig-19…

Mideast War vs Israel……..High Kill to Loss Ratio’s for Israel. Extremely, high since Air War over Lebanon in 1981. (i.e. no losses to F-15’s or F-16’s)

Libya………USN Destroyed 4 Libya Fighters on two separate occasion with no losses.

Iran / Iraq War……….Most Sources claim Iran was the Victor with Mainly American Types vs Iraq’s Russian / French Air Force.

Saudi / Iran……….Saudi shot down 2- Iranian F-4’s with F-15’s (Even)

Gulf War I and II…………..No contest US and Allied Forces lost only one aircraft to a Russian Type. (Mig-25 vs Hornet)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Israelis also beat Western equipped Jordanians in 1967.
Western weapons in the Iraqi army (Mirage F-1, Roland, B0-105 etc. etc.) did not fare any better than Soviet equipment during Gulf war
etc.etc.

Give F-22s or PAK-FA to the Arabs and they will find a way to screw things up and loose a war….I will be cautious to make judgments on quality of equipment based on the performance of Arab armies.

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Scooter,

I undestand your points of view and where you are coming from. All these years you have been exposed only to the Western points of view…

During the Indo China war, America supported India to an extend it send transports and aid.

The relations have been frosty since with America supporting Pakistan and Soviet Union India.

The Cold war is over and we are no longer bound to old friendships and alliances and neither are they. India and America are natural allies in the new century, they have similar objectives in more than one field.

Now the Russian relation should run parellel to the one with America and India is doing just that but if the Russians do things the way they are doing offlate, then I can see America replacing Russia as our premier strategic partner in the future.

The only things standing in the way of it is cold war era suspicion on both sides…as soon as that melts away things will get much bette.r

You are thinking short term. I am sure that India’s leaders are thinking long term.

The weapons acquired nowadays by your country will be still in service for decades to come. If you think you know what the strategic and geopolitical situation of the world will be 20 years from know, then you are either a prophet or….a fool.

Occasional price increases, shipment delays and temporary technical glitches are inconveniences that can happen with any supplier unfortunately. They are secondary inconveniences. If I was an Indian citizen my priorities would be as follows: I would prefer to purchase weapons from the country that is the least likely to apply sanctions in the future, from the place that does not attach strings/restrictions and conditions to a deal, from the supplier who is the most willing to provide technology transfer so that I become less and less reliant on weapon imports and develop my own military industry.

Just my 2 roupees worth.

Forget about the Russians for a moment.

Is there any Indian project that does not have a problem?

Which Russian factory is assembling the Mig-29K for India? Is it the Sokol plant?