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Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 87 total)
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  • in reply to: French Gowind OPV L'Adroit photos #1996131
    santi
    Participant

    Also, just realized that Navantia has a direct competitor (size-wise) to the Gowind OPV – it’s the BVL OPV delivered to Venezuela. Seems quite capable – wonder how much cheaper it is compared to BAM.

    Not easy to say.
    The contract for the 8 ships (4 BVL and 4 POVZEE) was nearly 1000 million €.
    Of course, PVZEE would be more expensive (SMART-S, 4 Diesel, 76 “stealth”, more developed combat system) but BVL aren’t bad equipped being an OPV (Millenium, Sting, Mirador…). May be 60-70 million € BVL and 150-180 million POVZEE, or something like that…

    Regards

    in reply to: French Gowind OPV L'Adroit photos #1996142
    santi
    Participant

    I think that it’s also a matter of “kind of use” in every Navy. In Spain all the patrol missions in the boundaries of EEZ are nearly yet transferred to other services like Guardia Civil (a police service) or SVA (customs). Small patrol vessels (less than 1.000 t) are disappearing from the Armada order of battle. So, BAM ships will assume a role more similar to Floreals or even Lafayettes in French service, at a fraction of the cost of a proper frigate.
    Other classes that must to go with the arrival of BAM are Descubierta corvettes (transformed in OPVs at the beginning of the 2000s) and, later, Serviola OPVs (a 1200 t PB).
    Serviolas are not so different in concept compared to L’Adroit (well, 20 years of technical development ;)) and showed their limitations in the “Halibut War” vs Canada : Spain having to decide if she send a frigate, driving to an scale up in the conflict, or sending completely inadequate patrol boats (that suffered a lot in the North Atlantic waters).
    May be those 20 years of technical evolution allow that a 1300 t ships achieves the capabilities of a 2000+ t ship a generation older, but curiously the trend in naval design seems to be “larger is better”.
    Anyway, L’Adroit is a concept ship and the smallest of the Gowind family, with some members in the size range of the BAM.

    Regards

    in reply to: French Gowind OPV L'Adroit photos #1996198
    santi
    Participant

    IMHO L’Adroit is more a possible replacement for smaller patrol boats like P400or even A69 “avisos”.
    BAM can operate NH-90 size helos and make more than 8000 nm at 15 n.
    No doubt that L’Adroit will excel in a lot of missions, but for others (like anti-piracy along Somaly costs) seems a bit small an shortlegged. In that sense BAM are in the league of Floreals (but with a crew of 35-50)

    Spain hopes to call home costly F-80s and F-100s from missions like de Africa Horn one and send BAMs in their place.

    Regards

    P.D. The second series of BAM was ordered last week. Another 3 patrol boats (to add to the 4 of the first lot), an oceanographic research ship and a vessel for submarine rescue and subsurface support.

    in reply to: French Gowind OPV L'Adroit photos #1996219
    santi
    Participant

    For a matter of comparison, a couple of images of the first BAM (P-41 Meteoro), ending these days her tests prior commision.

    http://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dsc_9091b.jpg
    http://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/dsc_8955b.jpg

    Regards

    in reply to: STOVL Carriers compared #2053393
    santi
    Participant

    The Principe de Asturias seem a little on the small side to effectively operate the F-35B???

    May be.
    Main problem would be elevator dimensions. Enough the stern one, but a bit narrow the one fore the island.
    Probably a reinforcement of the deck would be desirable (for the stronger and hotter stream of the F-35 prop) but I’m not sure of that.
    Otherwise she has a 12º ski-jump. Hangar size is not bad: 2.400 sq m vs, for instance, 2.800 sq m of Cavour. Air fuel capacity is also pretty fine for a ship of her size (1500 cubic m.).

    Regards

    in reply to: Spanish and other navies Never where ships #2071987
    santi
    Participant

    Do you have a good line drawing of the new Spanish AOR (or of Patino for that matter)?

    Something like that?

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/BAC_5.jpg

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/BAC_3b.jpg

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/BAC_4.jpg

    Of course, I want a shipbucket Cantabria sometime in the future….;)

    Regards

    in reply to: Spanish and other navies Never where ships #2072024
    santi
    Participant

    As promised, some line drawings of different Serviola OPV versions that never came to fruition.

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/IZAR_SERVIOLA_AAEPV.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/IZAR_SERVIOLA_ASEPV.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/IZAR_SERVIOLA_PDPV.jpg
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/IZAR_SERVIOLA_SAPV.jpg

    … and bonus track in form of a recent BAM OPV CGI 😉

    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/BAM_21b.jpg

    Regards

    in reply to: Spanish and other navies Never where ships #2072079
    santi
    Participant

    Hi, MConrads.
    As fine as ever this drawings 🙂
    May be the pedestal of the fore Mk-99/SPG-62 would be a bit taller, according to the images a couple of pages before. At that level firing a RAM can “toast” the radar ditch ;).

    Tomorrow I’ll post some rare line drawings of the Spanish Serviola OPV with Meroka, Harpoon and other stuff.

    Regards

    in reply to: Spanish and other navies Never where ships #2077695
    santi
    Participant

    I really like this thread. Perhaps it can be resurrected.

    I really love it too 😉 …. but is more and more difficult to find some hidden pearls.
    Fine those Meko iterations!

    That is a good image of the “Navire de Transport Belgo-Luxemburgois” proposed by Izar in 2003.

    http://www.infodefensa.com/ediciones_especiales/imgs_gr/infodefensa_01.jpg

    … and the hi-res version:
    http://www.infodefensa.com/ediciones_especiales/imgs_grande/infodefensa_01.jpg

    Cheers!

    in reply to: The 8000t "harrier carrier" concept? #2080087
    santi
    Participant

    Nice work!, Shiplover

    The blue spot added this year is the one for a V-22 or other big chopper.

    This is also a very nice Harrier Carrier!

    The Principe de Asturias. A bit large, but probably not very expensive

    A hell of expensive ship for the Spain of the 80’s. She was launched in a hurry with a provisional island fearing that the new socialist government axed the building. Once at sea, works progressed with plenty of troubles, with continuous strikes. Public shipyards suffered a drastic resize. Finally she started long sea trials in 1988, being accepted for service in 1989. For some months both R-01 Dedalo (Ex-Cabot) and R-11 PdA were nominally in service with Spanish Armada.
    Principe de Asturias cost around 100.000 million of Spanish Pesetas of the 80’s. For comparison, the 72 Hornets of the FACA program (1984-1990) cost around 300.000 million.
    A ship that, nowadays, cost around the same of 24 modern fighterbombers isn’t exactly a cheap one…:rolleyes:

    Regards

    santi
    Participant

    And it’s also look pretty strange for me that in her MLU, PdA will receive just the BPE’s electronic suite

    BPE’s electronics will be so comprehensive than in PdA and more modern: 3-D long range radar, various other radars, extensive comm and control, of course link-16 & 22, extensive ECM/ESM, comm-sat, TACAN, etc.

    Regards

    santi
    Participant

    No, JCI isn’t a pure carrier, only an LHD…. but like STOVL carrier is probably very comparable to PdA or other “Harrier-carriers”. Flight deck, hangar an elevators are larger than in PdA and designed with F-35B in mind, sensors and electronics are also quite capable for the carrier mission, in fact, when upgraded, PdA will receive the same equipments. She has also the needed structures for the maintenance of the aircrafts, though the crew and some tools would be borrowed from PdA or shared when PdA entered in maintenance, because Armada hasn’t the resources to maintain two combat air wings simultaneously
    Of course, speed is much less (21 vs 26 kn and more in other STOVL ships) but speed is less relevant in STOVL operations than in CATOBAR. Other characteristics where PdA is superior are aviation fuel capability (1500 sq meters vs 900 in JCI) and weapons elevators up to the flight deck (3 vs 1).
    So JCI is worse in some aspects but better in others than PdA… not considering the amphib role that is the main “raison d’etre” of the ship.
    Certainly Armada considers PdA its main carrier and JCI a more flexible asset more devoted to phib, peacekeeping and humanitarian operations

    Is there someone who known if Spain will substitute the Principes des asturias?

    Well, she will enter in dry dock once JCI accepted in service (second half of 2009) for a MLU (18-24 months). The idea is after that to maintain her in service while the Harriers survive in Spanish service (2018-2020??). Then a substitute will be needed. The nature of that substitute is object of fierce debate in Spanish forums, but up to the moment Armada only considers a more or less “pure” STOVL carrier “a la Cavour”, or a second LHD.

    Regards

    santi
    Participant

    What are those structures on the hull, near the bow, below the anchors?

    They are flotation boxes for help in the launching. They will be cut off later.

    What is the planned systems and weapons fit for that ship and why the hell do the Spanish insist on chopping the rear of their flight deck off?

    Most of them Spanish developed systems.
    – Lanza N 3D long range radar
    – Aries series surface and navigation radars
    – SCOMBA combat system
    – Aldebaran & Regulus ECM & ESM

    … the weapons: 4 x 20 mm GAM-B01 (recycled from the old LST) or, may be, 4 x 25 mm (Mk-38 mod. 2 seems the prefered choice), 2-4 12.7 MG’s and one or two RAM/SeaRAM (only if budget is available).

    And for the rear:
    It’s a good way of build in an “external elevator” without some of the incovenience of these and, as well, a platform for the mooring devices and some weapons.

    Spanish Armada wants also the same flight deck configuration in both ships, though flight deck in JCI is larger than in PdA, in order to make easyer training and cross operations.

    Armada has only one embarked wing (Harrier + SeaKing AEW + maintenance crew and their equipment). This “embarked wing” will be based in one ship or the other, not both, preferably PdA because this is a “pure carrier” (not good for other roles) while JCI will be a more flexible ship.

    Regards

    santi
    Participant

    LHD L-61 Juan Carlos I was launched today at 6:00 pm local time.

    http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/images/jci/Botadura_077.JPG

    http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/images/jci/Botadura_100.JPG

    http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/images/jci/Botadura_116.JPG

    Courtesy of this site:
    http://www.buquesdeguerra.es/

    Regards

    in reply to: Spanish and other navies Never where ships #2091971
    santi
    Participant

    I really like the planned new Japanese destroyer. Here are some more views:

    Well, they are not exactly “never where” ships but “near future” ships :rolleyes:
    19DD is on order and it will be commissioned in 2011-12.

    Here, a comparison of the “regular” 19DD and a possible improved version:
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/19DD.jpg

    … a realistic CGI of 19DD:
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y168/rgc/19DD_5.jpg

    Regards

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 87 total)