The point here, is that right now there are not ‘stealthy limits’ for the prototypes that are being tested, nor ‘IR signature’ limit, the flying prototypes must be clearer for the desired envelopment before the stealth thing comes over them.

The priority for the flying real prototypes are not the stealth thing, this is the last thing the LM team is worried about, at this stage of the program.

This aircraft has already a long run on testing and development, I mean…this plane is not into any kind of begginers state, only the C version is.

Both A and B versions have been tested extensively.

No report is suggesting the plane can do supercruising, despite the desperate need for LM to claim any kind of crap.

Why people is so obsessed with it SC capability?, because the opinion of a journalist?, he is not even an engineer, most people babbling over these topics are historians, photographers, writers or PR people.

as per the IR requirements of the design

Do you really think the LM team is testing it IR signature right now?..it stealth signature right now?..they are way more worried over the structure, engine’s performance, and physical performance than your stealth bull$hit.

Just as the F22, the LM team was concentrated in the physical performances..just when they got a plane that actually could fly, they started with the stealth thing

Wonder, the new british carrier is alreay laid down?

Arnt they better off investing the money in purchasing more Gorshkov and new Corvette than upgrading the old nuclear cruiser.

I don’t see it a good value for money upgrading 80’s design ship.

Frigates and corvettes are not meant to be used on blue waters, i think the priority gave for the kirov class is a sign of the russian navy concern for blue waters operations, probably to check and control international threats (USN carriers) or to help (and command) their attack submarine fleet (Oscars, and other subs).

So in that regard Kirovs are unique, also, they are very good and smart designs, for a displacement of 25000 tons they are floating fortresses.

What they lack is long range cruiser missiles.

I never understood the russian ambitions for a carrier fleet, carriers are (IMO) obsolete with the advent of the very long range cruiser missiles, a carrier must have room for fighters, ordnance, fuel, and a lot of personal, a very big cruiser only needs a lot of room for many cruiser missiles (with a range of 3000km), that IMO are more effective , have better range, are cheaper and need less room (for similar punch) than an aircraft fleet.

What the russian need is an airborne AWACS, but IMVHO, this could be overcome with a specialized ship to carry Be-200s (which are been reported to being operated on oceanic waters) with AWACS/low level tracking systems, so their Kirovs could operate with a small ship (probably at the 6000 tons of displacement) that would carry 5-7 Be-200s, it would not need any aircraft deck..for amphibious planes.

The Be-200 should need an C-L band Pesa array for general searching and a Irbis set for low level searching and target acquisition.

BTW, Austin, do you have any good liknk explaining how sonar arrays work? especially the spherical array?

ok, then, we can put the analogy, for a f-16 under jamming and a F-16 without jamming

For a F-117 under jamming and for a F-117 without jamming.

With out jamming the 117 should be detected at 288km with the nebo radar

One of the best (and the newest) VHF radars in the east is Vostok-E. Manufacturer claims detection ranges against targets (in moderately jammed conditions – 200W/Mhz, distance to jammer 200km) against:
B-52 – 250 km
F-14 – 150 km
F-117- 57 km.

.

As i can see in the Australian air force power web page, this system is stated to have a detection range of a 117 into the 72 Km, for a f-16 130 km, an for a B-52 250km, the F-16 can be considered into the ‘2m2’ RCS size, which is detected by the nebo thing at 450 Km

Depends of the output power and optimization of the antenna, as well as in which modes does it work better

As one can see, the relation between the detection ranges per aircraft is directly proportional, so the Vostok has x6 detection range over the P-19 radar in all the models, if the Nebo radar has a detection range x4 over the Vostok, for a F-16 like target, then we can multiply the 72KM range by 4, we get then 280 Km of detection range, against the F-117.

Russians consider the 117 as the most stealthy aircraft ever designed, while the rest, the B2,F117/35 are hybrids, i agreed with them , even before realizing their opinions on this matter.

Remember they claim the 117s detection range under jamming.

There is another thing.

The issue between the SAM and the Bombers, is somewhat more complicated than doing the typical contest and claims from published and nominal capabilities.

You guys are arguing in the typical kid discussion.

My XYZ missile is better than your XYZ radar, because wikipedia says so

My ZYX radar is better than your ZYX missile, because wikipedia says so

But what you don’t realize, is that SAMs will always have the advantage in the detection -information uncertainly issue.

Because

1-Their mobile searching radars are bigger, and can work at lower frequencies than anti-radar missiles could work.

2-They have the initiative, they control the fighting, they can turn on/off their tracking radars at will, they control the tactics, there is no real technical limit (at least theoretical) for this, the reaction time for a properly planned ilumination is very low, HARM and other systems won’t have the time to counter attack

3-They have the background, they are hard to detect and destroy with active means, even with passive means (for IR targeting), because they are covered with the ground clutter.