Rimmer,

Please mention the areas where PAF will outclass the IAF ?

I have listed the projects which are going to be inducted in next few years time.

I am sure with all these inductions the PAF has become much better than it was before at the time of sanctions. It will surely take time for both air forces to induct these complex machines and to operationalize them.
Lets take the example of UAV’s. The PAF is inducting the UAV with some sensible payload now only where as the the IAF has done it 5 years before. Now IAF is expanding its fleet of UAV’s with both indigenous and procured one’s and is in wide spread use.
The same way in case of radars, induction of Aerosats , GreenPie and various locally build radars in quantity will make any Air intrusion undetected for fighters and cruise missiles impossible.
The IAF is heavily investing on network centric warfare and satellite based recce now. All these means that there would be lot more to catch up for the PAF in coming decade.

Navyman

Its Greenpine. Not Greenpie! :p

In the area of UAVs PAF, as mentioned, matched IAF both in terms of small and mediun UAVs. Both air forces do not have a Large strategic UAV yet. Certainly an area IAF has lost its edge in.

Lets also not forget that PAF is fully capable of detecting and shooting down IAF Hermes UAVs as they did in the past.

I believe PAF’s TPS-77 radars far outclass anything in Indian inventory.

PAF has also be working on network centric warfare for the last 5 years now, in fact Pakistan Army has even managed to have a system installed in its tanks!

Muns/Miraji

I will answer both posts here if thats OK.

1) Yes, IAD has planes for more AWACs as does PAF. But you dont fight wars with equipment you have sent RFPs for, you fight with what you have. I was talking about next year, maybe even 6 months from now what is being delivered. As you have both pointed out, you have not even signed for extra refuellers or AWACs yet. So how long do you think they will take? I would say another 3 years minimum.

2) Get you point on AWACs movement, of course India, being bigger, will have more depth. However my other point remains very valid. With more limited AWACs resources and a bigger area to cover, IAF pilots will not be as well covered by AWACs as PAF.

3) You can be sure Erieye will be used to DFRM support every PAF fighter. We did not buy it for show.

4) India will have to abide by US conditions for military equipment. It will not be the only exception in the world. In fact this has been a sticking point in teh delivery of the P-8s and other equipment. India will not get preferential treatment over other US customers.

5) Still dont get the Kerry/lugar bill argument. In fact I agreed on thsi yet you may notbe reading my posts properly. Of course if US wants to stop arms supplies it can.

Again, you both keep missing the point of teh argument. IAF may well be sending out RFPs left right and centre, but as of next year, Pakistan’s ADGE envoirnment and AWACs support and air refuellers will put us in a better position. If and when IAFs extra equipment comes online then PAF wil already be upgrading awaell.

Just in terms of ADGE next year you will face

7 TPS-77 radars
4 Erieye
9 SPADA batteries

Thats just the new stuff!

Added later: IAF just canclled tender for extra refullers, yet here you are claiming they will be delivered soon. ????

DRFM has good application in self-protection jammers.

The AN/ALQ-31 pod does not have DRFM and is flight-line programmable for the EXPECTED threats. War-time frequencies of radars are not known. This is where I guess DRFM will give a tactical advantage.

This is true. But I would have expected higher-speed to be a priority over maintenance.

Once targeted by an IAF package, it will need to retreat back. And there is not much depth in Pakistan so that its path will be predictable (??) or likely to be under surveillance by the Phalcon. Hence speed/reaction time will be of essence, imho.

I am not quite sure if the same applies to Phalcon because of the depth of indian airspace.

Regards,
Ashish.

I dont doubt DFRM has its uses, but it just means PAF will have to reporgramme threat library for next sortie. As mentioned Erieye has this anyway, so moot point.

SAAB 2000 is very fast for a turboprop. Anyhow, the debate is not about what will happen if threatened, its about coverage.
Once airborne Erieye can cover the border, Phalcon may need to transit. Also, if PAF force Phalcon further it will become less effective.

In addition, Phalcon may have to be used to guard against China during war as well so it may not be able to dedicate all its time to Pakistan. In addition, 3 Phalcons may actually not be enough to provide 24 hour coverage, especially if one is in overhaul. As we know, a IL-76 airframe will spend much more time on the ground then a SAAB 2000.

Got some specific questions and would appreciate some replies thanks.

1) Are Pakistans new f-16’s blk 52’s DFRM equipped. Same for the MLU’s. Without them they might still be susceptible to jamming. Especially since IAF jammers and pods are in widespread use?

2) What are the conditions that Pakistan has accepted on their F-16 use. Last i heard they need to check with the US if they are to leave Pakistan airspace. Supposedly they are to be maintained in a new AF base and monitored constantly?

3) What payload and type can the Falco carry on the hardpoints? Understand it’s up to 70kgs. Are the Falco UAV’s in time supposed to assist in the Predator Drone attacks that are ongoing?

Good to see that Pakistanis still have faith in the US to provide most of it’s frontline systems. What with issues over the Kerry Lugar bill and it’s ongoing situation i was thinking the present situation isn’t all that rosy.

Rimmer i’m curious if you could expand on this thanks. What are the area’s that the PAF has overtaken the IAF?

Hi Muns

Your questions have already been answered by other members but I will also try as well.

1)DFRM is just an active way of collecting threat data and storing in real time. No real biggy, besides Eriye will have this capability in a far more sophisticated version then any F-16 pod. Additionally we can upgrade to DFRM later. F-16 EW pod will still be very effective, in fact I beleive the system we will be getting far outclasses pods the IAF have. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

2) Yes, all nationa have to abide by certain US conditions. The monitoring is not constant, just inventory checks whch India will also have to abide by when it purchases any US equipment. Again, feel free to correct me if India is exempt from this.

3) Falco is a tactical surveillence UAV, not a UCAV. Althought Italy is conducting trials with a weaponised version, Pakistan is still pursuing Reaper.

Kerry/Lugar is being used as a poltical football, it has nothing to do with the technology level of equipment. US May sanction Pakistan again, but this time Pakistan has invested in alternatives (Chinese systems, some European systems)

I would say in BVR , air refueling and AWACs Pakistan (as it stands) will be better served then IAF. Certanily next year.

More AWACs on call covering a smaller areas giving PAF better coverage. Add to that 4 Erieye will have much more availabiliy then 3 Phalcons. Not just numbers, but also a 2 engined western turboprop commuter design will be easier to mainatin and have more hours then a 70s 4 engined soviet transport design.

PAF pilots will get more AWACs coverage and far much more AWACs training time.

Same goes for air refueling. 4 planes serving a 400 fighter air force against 6 planes serving a 1000 plane air force.

Finally BVR. I will take the C5 AMRAAM over ANYTHING in the IAF inventory.

😀

If there is no chance of a war then why they need F-16 and Erieye? :p Yes, PAF will be there but the gap is increasing.

OK, your first attempt at questions was a shallow flame and now you have become a bit more obvious.

Do I need to alert the Mods/Webby?

Thsi thread is about PAF, not the politics of India and Pakistan.

Lets keep discussion focused.

With regards to gap increasing

In the areas of BVR, Radar, AWACs and air to air refuellers IAF had advantges over PAF. If you have read any of the posts or news reports on this forum would you not concede that these actual gaps have actually become closed and in some areas PAF has over taken IAF?

I will put it in simple terms for you.

Next year, to add to its fleet PAF will induct

18 Block 52s
4-6 F-16MLUs
12-16 More JF-16s
3 more Erieyes
10 more Falco UAVs
AMRAAM
SPADA 2000
More TPS-77 Radars
JDAMS
3 More air refuelers

Years after that

FC-20
SD-10
Chinese AWACs

The above is some key areas where “gaps” are starting to actually close, yet you talk of a “gap” increasing.

Granted IAF is modernising, but right now its SU-30s being slowly delivered by HAL at a rate of what, 12 a year?

Next year and for the next 2-4 years, IAF will be retiring more planes then its actually inducting.

No more orders for LCA
No decision on MRCA till end of 2010/2011
No Rostum UAV orders (after crash)

What is special about Indian conditions – dust? temperature? If US, French, British and Russian engines in the IAF inventory can handle the conditions in India, why should the Eurojet engine encounter problems?

Firstly that was just an example of a problem that MAY accur with a European engine. I was using that as an example.

As we know, IAF is testing all the MRCA contesters in desert, mountain and jungle conditions. Why would they feel the need to if US/Euro jets are designed for this?

The reason is India has some harsh envoirnments almost unique to it. A jet may have to fly in Himalayas in teh morning and Rajastan in the afternoon,. you have to test plane and engines for such eventualities.

Does that answer your question?

I was just talking about the IAF vs PAF, PAF will have much more deterrence in future related to now. At the moment the 100 odd MKIs the IAF have is enough to attain total Aerial Superiority.

Well, AIM-120C5 will be here next year I guess….