TigersharkI doubt we’ll see this in 2009. Just like last year when they said it’ll be out in 2008, they will push it. I say we’ll see it in 2010 when it’ll first fly. But I expect avionics problems and integration will delay mass production for another decade.
at the rate this is going, I’m quite certain China will get its own 5th generation fighter in service before the Russians. Russia may be ahead in building the airframe for its new fighter, but China is ahead in avionics.
TigersharkI don’t trust no Japanese media that likes to do scare mongering.
but a carrier will be in China’s best interest.
China has alot of water territory that other countries claim
This all belongs to China and China has the right to defend its territory from S.E Asian claimants, Korea, Japan, etc.
China already has the technology, its submarines can enter Japanese waters and escape before its detected. Its been done countless times.
TigersharkI don’t know where to start.
Flogger.. did you even bother to read what this topic is about. its about air forces that operate Russian and western aircraft and their experiences. I could care less about Algeria, Syria and its MiG-23 because they are air forces that don’t fit in this category.. they are predominantly Russian customers and you are again trying to prove a point no one asked. Yak-130 sure, whats the point of posting its picture, the only user of it is the Russian AF and no one asked anything about the Yak or the RUSAF.
Then there’s comments about time and age.
Lets see, the MiG-27 was introduced in the late 70s, the Mirage 2000 was in the early 80s… not exactly a big time gap.
also note that while their modernization program for the MiG-27 and Jaguar are extensive, that much focus have been put on the Jaguars and only recently they have completed just 1 MiG-27.
as for downplaying the sources.. there’s no logic in that.. so what if its old? if it happened in the 90s, then thats when it happened and it was an incident that was recorded.. of course what does that mean? it means they experienced problems with their MiG-29 and not just them but a variety of customers. Of course, it doesn’t mean they will completely throw it away, they will eventually fix it so they can use it, thats a no brainer and its idiotic to think they will throw it away just over that one incident.. but it also means they are stuck with it too. It also doesn’t change the fact that during the Kagril war (yes it wasnt Siachen my mistake) the Mirage 2000s proved its worth with Indian pilots.
as far as Su-30MKi and all that.. in the end, India is issuing an MMCA and there’s quite a few western types in the competition and its likely they will go for one..so there goes most of your arguements to those who keep pointing it out.. (not to mention that the MKI has quite a number of Israeli and French parts as well).
as for Cold war era… well no duh, most of these aircrafts came from the Cold war.. why bother bringing it out? the Mirage 2000, the MiG-27, MiG-29.. they were bought in the cold war. So what.. the fact remains is that these air forces are still using it.
TigersharkFlex, are you trying to just argue on each individual post or did you read my other posts?
1. I already said that the Mirage 2000 and Mig-27 were designed for different things. But in the end, the Mirage 2000 provided India its much needed ground attack abilities during Siachen.. something that should be the role of its MiG-27.
And yes I even mentioned the Jaguar, India has been more serious in upgrading the Jaguar’s capabilites than the MiG-27. Many countries that operated the MiG 23 already retired them, even before retiring their older technology MiG-21s. You may ask why they would do such a thing. The truth is.. swing wings are costly machines with even more maintenance needs.
2. Its convenient that you ignored countries that retired their MiG-29s. Czech Republic, Romania, Germany to name a few.
3. You mention people buy western because of politics. Well of course politics has a factor.. people buy Russian because of politics as well. Thats how the arms trade works.
4. The issue was never about the purchasing habits of what a country. Its well understood that countries have political and financial reasons as well as capability interests when making arms purchases. They have their reasons and that was not what I’m talking about.. but certain people here are trying to retort to statements I’ve never asked or made. India buys Russian and Western aircraft to diversify its sources and also, to make up bulk which is the case with cheaper Migs. That was never in question. The statement I made was that between these two, India (and a few other countries) prefer their western fighters. no more or no less. We could argue that they don’t or that they really do.. but instead the Flogger-Star49-Flex gang want to argue about things outside of this scope. you must realize that even if say India prefers its mirage 2000, they will still buy Russian for political and other reasons. so will many other countries. but of course you are intent on turning this into a fight between biased pro Russian groups here and biased pro US groups.
5. you also made a statement that most countries buy from two sources.. thats not true at all, there’s plenty of countries whose main aircraft are from one source. Korea, Japan, Turkey.. mostly American. Kazakhstan, Armenia, Syria, mostly Russian. there are few countries that operate two comparable aircraft from Russia and a western block nation.
6. ironic how u ask me to state sources when you provide none of your own.
http://www.panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=24699
MiG-29 maintenance issues
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060612/nation.htm
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2b.htm (see INAF and Luftwaffe section)
RMAF maintenance issues
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-82628213.html
Peru’s Mig problems
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06EFDD1E3AF932A05756C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Tigersharktalk about people using personal attacks and sly remarks when trying to “prove” their point. very mature
and to Flogger, no I’m not Golden Dragon.
Bringing in the Scorpene versus any Western aircraft is flawed. By the same people who argued that India uses MiG-27s because the Mirage 2000 is expensive, it is the same logic. Western equipment Malaysia uses is generally of better quality but Malaysia, despite its economic success, still has financial constraints and still needs to limit funding elsewhere and like it or not, the F-15 can be very expensive and it was never offered in the first place and that fact remains.
As for Chinese aircraft, the Spey is a western engine so what? there were no Russian equivalents that could fit in the JH-7 and China had to make do with what it got. Now the question is, if there was a Russian equivalent, would it have made the JH-7 better? Other aircraft such as the FC-1 and J-10 are temporarily using Russian engines not because they like it, but because there is no alternative at the moment. America and Europe wont sell its engines, but China is very close to fielding its own and replacing it and there goes Russia’s market for engines.
Even India’s own domestic LCA aircraft opted for a western engine instead of an RD-33.
As far as Poland or any other eastern European air arm goes.. note that most of them got rid of the MiG-29s quite fast. It may be manouverable, but its expensive to maintain and a real gas guzzler. The export models were also lacking. Some one pointed out that they wished they got the Gripen. Well guess what, its a western aircraft powered by western engines and western weapons (take your pick, European or American).
PS, Italy isn’t building the Yak-130.. if you actually bothered to study up on some news, they split off and made the M-346 which is lighter, faster and more fuel efficient already. the L-15 will probably be further developed than the Yak-130 at this pace. but hey, i don’t know why I’m bothering to respond to this.. the statement was air forces that operate both types tend to prefer western aircraft.. all this crap you guys are spewing out about new aircraft types and politics when that wasn’t the question.. but it seems that for some, its the only way to argue against what is the obvious.
TigersharkTalk about reading comprehension,
it seems most of the replies here are simply those who want to vent out to the world their favorite aircraft than understand logic.
– the comment on China and Russian aircraft..
Perhaps no one read when I said “whenever possible”. Those J-6s and J-7s Flogger keeps spouting off were from decades ago and during a time when China had few options. Today the story is different. You can boast as much as you want about the Su-30MKK but in the end China has stopped ordering it. the JH-7 uses engines based on British design, not Russian or perhaps you didn’t bother checking up facts? The latest missiles, helicopters, etc are all being bought from Western sources or based on western designs. Only certain things where the West cannot sell, and in which China cannot develop on their own, are then Russian. Of course if you deny these two important facts then yes by default China prefers Russian equipment (sarcasm).
-next on Malaysia.
There’s no more follow up orders for the F-18s because they’re not produced anymore or perhaps you guys did not know that? well its not and they can’t order any more however they will order the F-18E.. if you also didn’t know, the F-18E is a different aircraft than the F-18A-D. Why the Su-30MKM then? simple, because the F-15, Rafale, or Typhoon was not offered. and in the end, they wanted an MKM with Western avionics and components, things such as the Radar they could not import so they had to settle for a Russian one, that simple.
and all this talk about prices and getting what you pay for..
well you guys pretty confirmed my statements. I never asked the question of quantity vs quality. By stating that the more expensive Western aircraft like the Mirage, is better, while the cheaper MiG-27 is not as good.. is an admission that it is better. The F-22 is more expensive than the F-16, but no one denies its more expensive. People who are unable to accept the fact that on an aircraft to aircraft basis, that western aircraft have been more appreciated by air forces using Eastern aircraft as well, will then distort the question to “oh, but you get more of the Migs instead”.. which was never the question.
Tigershark4 pages later and seems like people still don’t get it.
I can’t answer every question but
1. This is a comparison about air forces that uses both western and soviet types in their inventory. Its not about air forces that use only soviet versus air forces using only western, so enough about Russian AF this or experiences in the USAF.
2. No Flogger, posting up as many pics as you can won’t make your point better. All you’ve done is post up a bunch of random aircraft that have nothing to do with the topic.
3. Some one claimed I’m selectively picking certain examples, well what else can one expect? There’s very few air forces that operate both types and I’ve listed most of them. Indian AF, Egyptian AF, Mexico, Peru, etc with India probably being the best example because they’ve often used them in war.
4. They sure are comparable, the Mirage 2000 is not too far off from the MiG-23 and 27 in production schedules, and even then, the 2000 excelled in an area that was supposed to be where the 23ML and 27 excelled in.
5. Even in China, whenever possible, they often prefer western designs or western inspired designs over what they get from Russia.
6. some one kept mentioning how great the MKI and MKM is. Notice that much of its greatness is owed to the fact that it uses a large part of Western sourced avionics. Israel, France, to name a few. How many here rave about the MKK? very few.
7. Malaysia has had a much easier time with their Hornet serviceability rates over their MiG-29, which explains no more follow up orders for it.
that is not to say that all Russian equivelents are bad, Russia probably gets better versions that are different than what India or Peru may use, but we’re not talking about Russia here.
Tigersharkhow come no one ever saw this one yet? it was in the other thread. There is also another picture of a full size mock up somewhere in this forum too, looked like the same aircraft. it was dark green
So who bets on China or Japan on releasing the first Asian stealth fighter?
TigersharkWhen it is your believe, why not, keep your nationalistic “glasses”!
Japan is building its fighters with US-licences. Just part of the avionic is indigenous.
In doing so the Japanese fighters are double in price. Still a good deal in Japanese eyes, because they can keep track with aircraft development without to pay the price to own developments.
Just for the day, when Japan has to stay alone for some unknown reason.
China is doing something similar, but too proud to acknowledge that.
i don’t think you seem to understand the last thing I wrote, but I guess you are more intent on trying to wage a war of nationalism than to listen to facts.
fact:
-Israel, Japan, or whatever only made limited attempts at indigeonizing their aircrafts
-It still uses American engines, parts, etc even if some have been replaced with their own.
-Israel, Japan, etc did not make their own engine on these aircrafts
-China made their own engine for the J-11B
-China replaced the Russian avionics with their own
-the J-11B is a fully Chinese indigenous aircraft with Russian ROOTS, but that is as far as it goes.
-you don’t hear alot of people calling the Tu-4 being American do they, just that it was derived from an American aircraft. the Tu-4 is 100% built by Russia.
so lets stop pointing fingers and listen to the truth.
Tigersharkunlikely.. the Americans will still have suspicions with India’s deep links with Russia, and India will be wary of the reliability of the Americans and their links with Pakistan.
after all, why would the Americans want to sell something to a country that may pass on technology to Russia? they can reduce this threat by selling them monkey models, but they would probably be inferior to their Su-30MKI in capability.
it may be more likely they would sell the JSF to Pakistan if Pakistan had more money.
TigersharkThat is nonsense and you know that. To beef-up the structure of a fighter and replace certain parts will not make something new really.
China tried to learn to built a fighter like the Flanker in a similar way like India or some other examples. There is nothing wrong about that and it is a smart way.
Israel bought the refined Mirage 5 (Mirage IIIE) and transformed it in the Kfirs.
Israel beefed-up their F-15s to F-15E level (Baaz) and none claimed, that this does made it an indigenous fighter in total. The result and performance gains may justify that claim to some to degree, but in the end it is still the basic F-15. The F-4-2000 is another example. If the J-11B comes close to the canceled Su-27MF from the early 90s is open for discussion.
The H-7, J-8, J-10 and FC-1 are much more indeginous by that.
Something like the “Rafale” will be a future indeginous Chinese fighter. All parts designed and built in China.
no the J-11B is not like the Kfir or F-15E. Those, while Israeli, still rely on American parts like the engines. the J-11B is fully Chinese. It is a true Chinese fighter and 100% indigenous. In many ways China is becoming a bit like Japan, they could fully reverse engineer something, then make a superior improved indigenous version of it. thats the relationship between the Su-27 and the J-11.
TigersharkI believe this is the source :
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20070614.aspx
crappy article from a crappy source. probably saw the India deal for MIL and assumed it was a Ka-62
TigersharkThe difference between Japan making unlicsensed F-2s and what not, compared to China is different.
Japan and the US share strong economical ties and military ties.
China and Russia not so much. In fact China is far more important for Russia than Russia is to China.
1. China can simply get away with mass producing the J-11s, exporting it and challenging Russia’s Su-27 sales with much less reprecussion than if Japan or Korea did the same with an American aircraft.
2. Russia needs more direct investments from China than the reverse. Countries view Russia as a big investment risk despite its potentials simply because corruption there is so bad, as well as crime. China may not be one of the least corrupt countries, but it certainly is far more investor friendly, stable, and has crime under much better control.
3. you may argue China needs Russia’s oil.. and its true that China has rising oil consumption.. but the fact of the matter is, China has been doing fine with out much of Russia’s oil. Infact Russia has frequently favored Japan in its asian energy dealings, and over all, screws alot of countries over by halting its flow of oil to demand more profit, etc. look at what’s happening in Eastern Europe! China is already diversifying its oil sources by making deals with Iran, Venezuela and Kazakhstan.
4. to make it simple, Russia and China only associate with each other due to the existence of the US, period dot. other wise they have a long history of distrust over each other, and territorial disputes. In addition, there is very little China can learn from Russia, in fact is Russia who could learn a lesson or two from China.. from computers, even to effective forms of communism and market economy.
TigersharkWell china could have given pakistan the J-10 instead of the JF-17.:rolleyes:
But Pakistan is not China. Pakistan had to go through alot of wars, difficulties with neighbors on the east and west side that create instability, and its still a developing country. Thats why its logical to start with the JF-17, not the J-10. Its like expecting Bangladesh to mass produce the F-15. :rolleyes:
Tigersharkprobably kdx I, II > 052C > Kongo.
good detail on these ships is hard to come buy so its just guestimates.
the 052C is aimed towards air defense and it has better equipment for it than the KDX I, II. When comparing ship industries, China has a longer history of building warships than S.Korea, but S.Korea has experience in building commercial ships which is different.
the 052C incorporates more radar reducing features than the KDX I,II and both are more designed for a variety of roles than being more dedicated than the 052C.
The Kongo is very good but its really nothing more than a super version of the American Aleigh Burke. When the S.Koreans release the KDX III, I think it will be able to match the 052C. It is the heaviest of their three projects and will be called emperor shizong.
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