VX927Personally, I think TVOC have been given the proverbial benefit of the doubt more times than they could reasonably expect. I think most of us would forgive them for a lot, considering that they did finally get the aircraft into the air, but when you read stuff like this, you have to wonder what is going on. I really don’t know how anyone could have the bare faced cheek to beg for money off people (poor little kids giving-up their spending money for heaven’s sake) while Pleming takes home 60k? I don’t doubt for a minute that the figure is correct, based on some of his expenses claims I also saw.
Sorry but it stinks, simple as that.
I would just like to echo what Chox says… I think the whole thing sucks!
VX927I’m not sure why this Reds issue is so big, they go to Cyprus every year to practice (can we afford that) and there is plenty of other airspace open to them. They used to practice in Cornwall – they could still do that and base at Newquay airport for a couple of weeks!
All I’m saying is that there are plenty of options which wouldn’t have been considered a few years back.
Pagen, I really dont know where you are coming from here. First things first, the reds needs airspace for more than a couple of weeks!
I think you’ll find that all of the options were considered only a few years ago. It was off the back of this study that they decided on the move to Waddington. They looked at everything from Leeming to Yeovilton. The main problem with all the locations was a lack of airspace. If that wasn’t an issue then why wouldn’t they go with the obvious choice and move to Leeming or Valey? Do you know the processes involved in trying to gain ‘airspace’. It was looked at in great detail, and the conclusion was that there was no way that they would be able to re create R313. What will all the Environmentalists, NIMBY’s, planners etc, not to mention regional airports swallowing up airspace left right and center, there was just no way it would be approved. And so the decision was taken too move them to Waddington so that they could continue with the airspace that they already have secured. There is a big difference between the reds getting a temporary TRA for a few practices, and a permanent place to practice with airspace extending to 10,000′
VX927Resmorroh and Pagen make excellent points, and unfortunately, I feel they are right. Farnbourgh, Tangmere, Upwood, etc, have all gone, and they were just as historic.
Can I just clarify one point here, because I think a lot of what I’m saying is being taken out of context. I dont think that Scamptons history will save it from the MOD. The only thing that Scamptons history will / should / might save it from is the housing developers…
Yes I’m passionate about the airfield. I have the pleasure and good fortune of being able to fly from there, but the comments I’ve made are based on conversations that have been had with people who know a lot more about the situation than most of us on this forum.
I still think that the transit issues for the Red Arrows being based else where will keep them at Scampton. That’s my opinion… And only time will tell. But can we please get away from this misconception that I think that Scamptons history will save it from the MOD.
VX927Many stations can lay claim to being ‘the most original in existance’, the closer you are to a particular camp the more you are attched to it.
The ‘most original in existance’ statement came from English Heritage… not me. I’m only the messenger. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, you’ll see that my mentioning of English Heritage was nothing to do with the RAF keeping the base open. I simply mentioned English Heritage in response to those who think that to bulldozers are going to come in and flatten the place. I dont think that English Heritage will allow that. That doesn’t mean that the RAF will keep the place open just because English Heritage are interested in the site.
Are you in touch with all senior officers that make decisions.
No. again, I’m only passing on the message. This one came from OC RAFAT.
There won’t be a U turn, Scampton is well beyond it. If the station was to have had a long term future a decision to save it would have had to have been made years ago.
We’ll see! – I don’t wish to sound arrogant with that statement, but really, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there was a u turn.
As for other bases for the Reds, seriously most of the big stations could house them, operational flying and housed units are well down now (any spotter or air trafficker could tell you that), we are talking about a non essential unit that really doesn’t need a dedicated station for their express use.
I really think you’ve missed the point. It’s not about accommodation. Yes, there are plenty of placed that could physically accommodate the Reds. But no where else has the ability to re create R313… and no 313 means no Red Arrows. You could say put them to ***** (***** = anywhere)… They still have to get to R313 to practice. Why do you think they have chosen Waddington and not Valley/ It would make sense to station the Reds at Valley, but the inability to re create R313 prevents that. And OC RAFAT also has to get too and from 313, in order to watch the practice. Also sponsorship and the corporate side of things is massive for the Reds. They need to be able to hold corporate days in order to survive. It just doesn’t work if you turn up at *****, watch the brief, then hang around for an hour while the reds fly somewhere out of site then come back and watch the de brief. that will really keep the corporate world happy.
There is two issues here… One if the future of Scampton, the other is the Future location of the Reds. I personally think the two kind of go hand in hand, in that as long as the Reds survive, then I think Scampton will survive.
VX927Interesting that they say its intact, consdiering the amount of upgrading they did in the 50’s and 60s, from the books i have it must have looked like science fiction in its day what with the double fences and massive bunkers.
Its a shame Swinderby wasnt saved, the place was like a time warp. I have never known an airfield to have such an atmosphere.
I cant agree more with you… But thats what they told me.
VX927There seems to be a fair wearing of rose tinted glasses here, especially by VX.
Two questions that I will simplify here,
A Why would the RAF really want to keep Scampton?
B What makes Scampton more worthy of saving or more historical than other camps?
Pagen,
I’m interested in your reply here. What makes you think that I’m wearing rose tinted specs? Really, I’m curious to know!
The FACT is that the majority of the senior management want Scampton to stay open. It’s only Sir Torpy who wants to close it… But as he’s at the top, then what he says goes! I really wouldn’t be surprised if there was a u turn in future when he gives up post as chief of the air staff. However, I’m still very interested to know of these bases where you think that the reds can move to? You sound like you’re ‘in the know’ – Do you know what the latest suggestion was for transporting OC RAFTA to and from Scampton – Waddington every hour to see the Reds fly? I’ll give you a clue. It’s hugely expensive, and I’d give it about 3 weeks before the bean counters put an end to it. Like I said, i wouldn’t be surprised if we see a u turn!
What makes Scampton more worthy of saving or more historical than other camps? – In reality… Absolutely NOTHING, but as Mr and Mrs Jo Blogs about Wickenby and the thousands of men who died flying from there, and they wont have a clue… Ask them about Scampton, and they’ll tell you that thats where 617 Squadron flew from, Guy Gibsons dog is there, and Red Arrows fly from there too. When I met the guys from English Heritage on site at Scampton, their view was that Scampton remained the most original intact WW2 airfield that the RAF still accommodates, and for that reason they wanted it preserving…. Thats not rose tinted glasses… Thats what English Heritage told me.
VX927One thing I always wondered was the possibility of BAE ‘lending’ the RAF a dozen hawks to equip the Reds. In know that’s a hugely expensive option, but if it’s true that the Reds have sold more Hawks for BAE, than they could ever have sold themselves, then it may be a good option?
I know, it will never happen, but I do think that there would be some merit in the idea!
VX927What is it that makes you so sure that Scampton will be turned into housing? The MOD had plans to demolish parts of the airfield a couple of years ago and English heritage stepped in and said ‘No Way’… What makes you think they English Heritage will now let a bunch of developers move in and flatten the place? Then again, how many of you have actually been to Scampton? If you were looking to develop in this part of the world then there are far better areas to develop than Scampton. Welton has several hundred acres on land ear marked for development. It might take 20 years before it happens, but thats what is planned.
Chox… Just one point. You mention that the accommodation at Scampton has become “a rather grubby council-esque enclave ” – Perhaps you should come to Lincoln and I’ll show you some rather grubby council-esque enclaves. The domestic accommodation at Scampton is actually a rather nice place to live. I only know that because my Sister lives there… But really, while there is a lot of sence in what you say, I think you’re off the mark with that one!
Phillip Rhodes… Aside from all of your other points, and despite what the BBC might say there is no way that the Reds could practice over Barkston Heath, as there isn’t the necessary air space requirements.
Lastly, and not directly replated, but what level of fire cover does 558 need? I would have thought that 2 RAF fire tenders would have been sufficient?
VX927There are plenty of other places the Reds can go.
Perhaps you’d like to give OC RAFAT a call and let him know where these other places are, because the last time I spoke with him, there really weren’t many options available… Waddington, Scampton, or Waddington!
Chox, you’re right in what you say… The accommodation was being prepared at Waddington, but the last I’d heard the hangar that had been identified was found not to be suitable because the MOD in their wisdom had pulled out all the 3 phase power and re wired it with 240V 3pin plugs… The costs that were being quoted to convert the whole project were colossal. Having said that, that may only be a rumor that is going around Scampton.
I personally think that the reds will end up staying at Scampton until their times runs out… Then they’ll close the base.
VX927Running a satellite airfield is very different to running an airfield with a based lodger unit. Air traffic and fire services are run at a lower level, and more than basic building maintainance is not required. Mona and Predannack fall into this category.
I’m well aware of that… It still doesn’t get around the fact that there is no where at the moment for the Reds to go. People keep saying that they are going to Waddington, but if you talk to the boys at Waddington, the first thing they ask is ‘where are they going to put them’? there is no room.
Scampton already has less than basic building maintenance, which is why the place is falling apart, and fire cover still has to be provided. Either stationed at Scampton, or driven through Lincoln every day from Waddington like it used to be. Either way, the MOD still have to keep that asset. So all we’re really talking about now is ATC? The runway obviously needs doing, but they can probably justify that with the extra usage!
VX927The Reds are due to move to Waddington in 2011/2012
Yep, they are ‘due’ to move. But as there is no accommodation for them at Waddington, and Waddington has just taken delivery of yet another aircraft type, I cant see it happening.
Why would the RAF want to maintain Scampton as an airfield
Because the airfield side of Scampton belongs to Cranwell and Cranwell dont want it to close. It’s regularly used by them. The RAF are in the process of taking delivery of another 4 king airs for 5 Squadron, which means 45 Sqn are likely to have more trade. All in all, it makes no sense to get rid of Scampton as long as the Reds are still flying. I assume that there will still need to be fire cover at Scampton if the were to Reds move out to Waddingotn, as they will still practice over Scampton. Likewise, there will still need to be the same skeleton medical cover.
VX927As some who bases their aircraft at Scampton, all I would say on the subject is dont believe all you read… Or if you do believe all you read, then make sure you read everything! As I understand it, there is only 1 man who wants it to close. Admittedly, that man sits at the top, but everyone else in the line is in favour of it staying open. I think as long as the Reds exist, then Scampton will survive, and as I think the Reds will out live the Vulcan, then moving 558 to Scampton isn’t such a stupid idea. All we need then is to get the BBMF over, and we’d have the perfect heritage station.
VX927As the stock was already bought and paid for then that makes the 6k profit dos’nt it?
Er… No.
No offence here but are you being serious?
VX927Here’s an idea why not sell parts of the airplane? Not literally but similar to the rivets for the Beverly project or Bullets from R Robert project.
It’s a nice idea, but its not theirs to see… It already belongs to the people. We got it for the bargain price of about £6million!
Here’s an idea… why not come clean, publish the accounts and show us what the money is for? There is no wonder that there is no major sponsor, when things like the accounts aren’t published, and the project is surrounded in secrecy.
Really, it has to be time for changes at the top? It’s just not working at the moment. I say step aside and let someone else have a go, while there is still chance. The project is already on its way to stalling, and I think if that happens, then it really is the end of flying for the big tin triangle:(
VX927I must confess, I am looking at this through very simple eyes, but I can never understand the figures quoted by TVOC. At Waddington, we were told that 558 need’s £50k per month. That was in July. If we assume, that NOTHING had come into the pot, then I could understand them asking for £300k… Or maybe £600k to see them through to the start of the next season. But no… They need £1million by early next year even though we know that thousands of pounds have been donated. I just do get it.:confused:
Can anyone from TVOC give us a breakdown of what this money is needed for?
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