Originally posted by Hand87_5
TTP ,

Don’t get me wrong. I guess rebuilding Europe after WWII was the right thing to do, as it is the right thing to do in Irak.

I know the America=Business= Capitalism. That is an equation which works pretty well if everyone is playing the rules.
What is the basic assumption:
“Let us do business, earn money , we will create jobs , produce wealth , and everybody will be happy”: fine!
It’s almost as perfect in theory as communism. The problem is that (as in communist countries) not everybody is playing with the same rules.What do we see in the business now.
Companies outsourcing, closing facilities in the US and in Europe in order to reopen them in Asia. Why? Because they not profitable? No , because they want them MORE profitable. More profitable for who? For the emplyees? No, to give indecent bonusses to their CEO’s ,fat cats and to a bunch of big stock holders. Right now Asia whealth is ramping up and US and Europe is getting down. I’m affraid that the end will be painful……

But maybe I’m a bit out of topic here :rolleyes:

You got a point here, Hand.

That fact in itself is no reason. You are forgetting resolution 242 and 313.

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United Nations Security Council Resolution 313

February 28, 1972

The Security Council,

Demands that Israel immediately desist and refrain from any ground and air military action against Lebanon and forthwith withdraw all its military forces from Lebanese territory

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United Nations Security Council Resolution 242

November 22, 1967

click here

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So Israel is in breach of the UN SC for 35,5 years so 12 years is nothing.

But like I said that in itself is no argument to attack someone. The UN SC, the same body, which desided on this resolution, couldn’t agree whether to attack Iraq or not. And you have to agree with me it would be an utter silly argument to make: America upheld the resolutions by defying the Security Counsel.

Yes that happened a sovereign nation was attack by another nation and the US/UK/France etc. forces came to the rescue. Iraq was a sovereign nation, which was also attacked. That was my point.

I do also believe Europe and America aren’t’ t that different. But there are some differences and we must be able to talk about these different points of view.

The strange thing with Iraq is of course that it was a verily ride country before 1991. Besides being a dictator there the population was doing quite good, in terms of education, health services etc. That was all depleted after the second Gulf war.

Come on share your views Hand, you know I am always interested in the point of view of my Frensh friend.

Again someone whom is trying to influence an election trew violence. It is a bloody shame.

TTP,

Please be careful by defining democracy as the perfect solution to everything. I post-war Europe it worked all right but there was a strong tradition of democracy. I must admit I know too little about Japan an South Korea, but in the latter case there is still the overwhelming fair of the North.
But more importunately I can mention a dozen countries, which aren’t democratic, but will they function well and the people are contend with their leadership.

The gamble, which the Bush administration is taking with Iraq, is a gamble, which you should not take with any country. Iraq was not the worst country Bush could have taken on, in some ways Saudi Arabia is much worse then Iraq was back then, especially when you look towards the rights of Christians or more important the people whom don’ t believe. So I would ply for not making this a blueprint of things to come.

I am a firm believer in the self-government of a population. In essence America did attack Iraq without any just cause. How would America feel if for instance if a sovereign state like Kuwait was attacked and over run. There must be an appealing reason to breached the sanctuary of sovereign of a state. In my humble view that can only be approved by a “world order” like the UN. Even though I know how much is against it and how much politics are behind it. But the integrity of a state and the right of determination is a fundamental part of who we are as a nation. This is what the USA – UK coalition has broken in the case of Iraq that is why I was against the war in the first place.

That said, being also a realist, you can’t pull out of Iraq now, it would not be fair for the Iraqis. Once you remove the power in a country you MUST help it on its feet again, that is the responsibility when you attack someone. Like I said before I hope there will be a proper UN mandate so we (The Netherlands/Spain/Poland/UK/USA/ etc.) can function like that.

PS Don’t bring up WWII and with Europe, we resisted against the Nazi Germans and that is a totally different situation.

PSS I also believe that our points of view aren’t that far a part, but the fundamentals are a total different story.

Well I agree does that count 😀 ?