DutchyRE: Pic Of The Day- best c/s on great flying machi
A smiley with a piercing an breathtaking sight 😉
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: American Invation and Agression
You have raised some very valid points and I’ll try and answer some of them. I don’t know everything about everything. I just expressed my opinion on this forum.
>”Yes physically his crimes were committed in one country,
>but his alleged crimes were of a nature that they were
>crimes against humanity as a hole. There fore they should
>stand trail for an international court facing an
>international jury, not just Europe and US, and explain them
>self. “
>
>How can you determine that?
>
First of all, I don’t determine that. Firstly the people who determine if some one should stand trail are the proscecutors of the international court. Crimes against humanity are quite will defined in -I believe- some accord probably closed in Geneva. I think it is even defined in the law of war. So it is quite well established and quite well excepted in the world even the US.
The international court doesn’t have an jury system -thank god- but just a staff of proffersion judges, of different nationalities appointed by the UN.
>Is the attempted removal of Albanians from Kosovo any
>different from the successful removal of Serbs from Kosovo?
Yes it is. Kosovo was then and is now still part Serbia, or reather the republic of former Yugoslavia was and it is there fore quite strange to kick out the people who supposed to run this place. That said, the manner in which they did run it can be questioned (tipical British understatement). In the Kosovo war I don’t think any Albanian nationals were precent, or not from the government side anyway. The only Albanians precent were infact Ethnic Albanions who are Yugoslav nationals.
>Or how about the removal of the Taliban from Afghanistan?
That was also a case of intervening in national affairs. I think that was quite invalid from the American side.
>I guess this international court must be choked up with
>cases against people from Rwanda…
there is a special Rwanda tribunal in, I think, Zimbadwe)
or does it just put
>people to trial if they are on CNN for more than a few token
>minutes?
Interesting the media (or CNN- ) effect. There is one but I can not deterimine how big it is.
>The shooting down of an Iranian airliner over international
>waters must be a case for teh international court too I
>guess?
No, it isn’t. The international United Nations Warcrimes Court is for individuals who commited war crimes. Shooting down an Iranian Airliner wasn’t a very nice thing to do, but you can’t say it is a war crime, because it wasn’t tarcketed as an airliner and deliberately shot down a such. I would be a war crime if there was a degree from our Taxes ranger which said to shoot down all cavilian airlines and the commander could and should be hold accounteble for shooting it down.
>What time limit shall we put on crimes against humanity?
>Does it go back 60 odd years to include WWII, forever? to
>include what the Americans did to the American Indians or
>the British did to the Indians?
>Or do we just try those who have been in the news recently.
Th new war crimes court will only put on trail those individuals who commited their crimes after july 1 2002, this is the date that the court is going to be put into effect.
>If you don’t trust the Americans to do the right thing why
>should the Americans trust a world court… wherever it is
>based to do the right thing?
The precise location of the court itself is irrelevant to my hole argument. It is an international court based on international law with an international staff.
>Why indeed should the Yugoslavs trust the World Court to do
>the right thing?
If you are questioning the Court in general then you must ask your self what is the alternative here.
>I don’t really understand Americans very well… not
>surprising really considering the distance between us.
>Ethnically I am called European here in New Zealand (as
>opposed to Polynesian or Maori or Chinese etc etc) but I
>think I have as little understanding of Europeans as I do of
>Americans.
>I have been told many times here that play the devil
>advocate, but most of the time it is just a perspective that
>the person I am talking to hadn’t thought of or has chosen
>to ignore.
>Leaders of countries are constantly making decisions that
>could cost lives. Poor investment in healthcare, or
>education, or not complying with “international” (read
>US/West) will can kill too. Where do you draw the line?
The line is drawn where we, as the international communatity put it, in other words the geneva convention. Every one is bound by the Geneva convention if they are part of the United Nations, and all countries are except for the Vatican city and Switzerland. (officially Taiwan doesnot excist.)
>The KLA have proved to be very media savvy… can we trust
>their evidence?
The evidence will be handled by the judges and the court in general. Evidence which can not be trusted will not be emitted into the court room, or that’s the theory anyway.
>They have an agenda. There are many reports
>that they are as bad as or worse now than the Serbs were
>reported to be before NATO went in. The problems in
>Macedonia suggest that they haven’t finished yet.
>The KLA had an agenda. The US had an agenda. The rest of
>NATO had an agenda.
>Do you really think these groups have finished here?
No, I don’t think we have seen a permanent solution to the Yugoslav problem yet.
>Do you think these groups could influence the trial?
No, I believe in misses Justitia and that she is blind.
>I am pretty sure that at the drop of a hat the KLA could
>lead out 10,000 people who saw milosovich personally execute
>small children. The US can’t say for sure… but it could
>have happened… I’m sure satellite imagery of freshly turned
>ground will do for a mass grave.
>
>What I am saying is that like you I don’t trust someone…
>you don’t trust the US to put on trial anyone they “save’
>from trial…
First I’m saying that the US is biased towards its own citizen, as it should be. Imagine this, if Bush were to stand trail in, let say Houston, Taxes.. The people who voted for him, should conflict them??? Quite strange. In these kind of cases where there is a lot of emotions involved the best thing to do is to hold the trail away from this emotions and hold it in a place were they could receive a fair trail. There were people omitted by the Yugoslav tribunal in The Hague, could this have been the case if you had held the same trail in Kosovo?
>I am saying I don’t trust that anyone could
>get a fair trial in a world court (anywhere… not just
>picking on the Hague…. except Yugoslavia.).
>Milosovich is considered guilty in Europe… what sort of
>fair trial is he going to get?
I hope he will be convicted on the bases of the evidence, which is quite convincing I guess.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: American Invation and Agression
You have raised some very valid points and I’ll try and answer some of them. I don’t know everything about everything. I just expressed my opinion on this forum.
>”Yes physically his crimes were committed in one country,
>but his alleged crimes were of a nature that they were
>crimes against humanity as a hole. There fore they should
>stand trail for an international court facing an
>international jury, not just Europe and US, and explain them
>self. “
>
>How can you determine that?
>
First of all, I don’t determine that. Firstly the people who determine if some one should stand trail are the proscecutors of the international court. Crimes against humanity are quite will defined in -I believe- some accord probably closed in Geneva. I think it is even defined in the law of war. So it is quite well established and quite well excepted in the world even the US.
The international court doesn’t have an jury system -thank god- but just a staff of proffersion judges, of different nationalities appointed by the UN.
>Is the attempted removal of Albanians from Kosovo any
>different from the successful removal of Serbs from Kosovo?
Yes it is. Kosovo was then and is now still part Serbia, or reather the republic of former Yugoslavia was and it is there fore quite strange to kick out the people who supposed to run this place. That said, the manner in which they did run it can be questioned (tipical British understatement). In the Kosovo war I don’t think any Albanian nationals were precent, or not from the government side anyway. The only Albanians precent were infact Ethnic Albanions who are Yugoslav nationals.
>Or how about the removal of the Taliban from Afghanistan?
That was also a case of intervening in national affairs. I think that was quite invalid from the American side.
>I guess this international court must be choked up with
>cases against people from Rwanda…
there is a special Rwanda tribunal in, I think, Zimbadwe)
or does it just put
>people to trial if they are on CNN for more than a few token
>minutes?
Interesting the media (or CNN- ) effect. There is one but I can not deterimine how big it is.
>The shooting down of an Iranian airliner over international
>waters must be a case for teh international court too I
>guess?
No, it isn’t. The international United Nations Warcrimes Court is for individuals who commited war crimes. Shooting down an Iranian Airliner wasn’t a very nice thing to do, but you can’t say it is a war crime, because it wasn’t tarcketed as an airliner and deliberately shot down a such. I would be a war crime if there was a degree from our Taxes ranger which said to shoot down all cavilian airlines and the commander could and should be hold accounteble for shooting it down.
>What time limit shall we put on crimes against humanity?
>Does it go back 60 odd years to include WWII, forever? to
>include what the Americans did to the American Indians or
>the British did to the Indians?
>Or do we just try those who have been in the news recently.
Th new war crimes court will only put on trail those individuals who commited their crimes after july 1 2002, this is the date that the court is going to be put into effect.
>If you don’t trust the Americans to do the right thing why
>should the Americans trust a world court… wherever it is
>based to do the right thing?
The precise location of the court itself is irrelevant to my hole argument. It is an international court based on international law with an international staff.
>Why indeed should the Yugoslavs trust the World Court to do
>the right thing?
If you are questioning the Court in general then you must ask your self what is the alternative here.
>I don’t really understand Americans very well… not
>surprising really considering the distance between us.
>Ethnically I am called European here in New Zealand (as
>opposed to Polynesian or Maori or Chinese etc etc) but I
>think I have as little understanding of Europeans as I do of
>Americans.
>I have been told many times here that play the devil
>advocate, but most of the time it is just a perspective that
>the person I am talking to hadn’t thought of or has chosen
>to ignore.
>Leaders of countries are constantly making decisions that
>could cost lives. Poor investment in healthcare, or
>education, or not complying with “international” (read
>US/West) will can kill too. Where do you draw the line?
The line is drawn where we, as the international communatity put it, in other words the geneva convention. Every one is bound by the Geneva convention if they are part of the United Nations, and all countries are except for the Vatican city and Switzerland. (officially Taiwan doesnot excist.)
>The KLA have proved to be very media savvy… can we trust
>their evidence?
The evidence will be handled by the judges and the court in general. Evidence which can not be trusted will not be emitted into the court room, or that’s the theory anyway.
>They have an agenda. There are many reports
>that they are as bad as or worse now than the Serbs were
>reported to be before NATO went in. The problems in
>Macedonia suggest that they haven’t finished yet.
>The KLA had an agenda. The US had an agenda. The rest of
>NATO had an agenda.
>Do you really think these groups have finished here?
No, I don’t think we have seen a permanent solution to the Yugoslav problem yet.
>Do you think these groups could influence the trial?
No, I believe in misses Justitia and that she is blind.
>I am pretty sure that at the drop of a hat the KLA could
>lead out 10,000 people who saw milosovich personally execute
>small children. The US can’t say for sure… but it could
>have happened… I’m sure satellite imagery of freshly turned
>ground will do for a mass grave.
>
>What I am saying is that like you I don’t trust someone…
>you don’t trust the US to put on trial anyone they “save’
>from trial…
First I’m saying that the US is biased towards its own citizen, as it should be. Imagine this, if Bush were to stand trail in, let say Houston, Taxes.. The people who voted for him, should conflict them??? Quite strange. In these kind of cases where there is a lot of emotions involved the best thing to do is to hold the trail away from this emotions and hold it in a place were they could receive a fair trail. There were people omitted by the Yugoslav tribunal in The Hague, could this have been the case if you had held the same trail in Kosovo?
>I am saying I don’t trust that anyone could
>get a fair trial in a world court (anywhere… not just
>picking on the Hague…. except Yugoslavia.).
>Milosovich is considered guilty in Europe… what sort of
>fair trial is he going to get?
I hope he will be convicted on the bases of the evidence, which is quite convincing I guess.
regards,
jw
DutchyJa no need for this
I agree with Kev. As I’ve said in my first posting that I like the picture for it self.
You must not cross the line by pushing your fate to anyone but this was certainly OK, so don’t worry about it.
regards,
jw
DutchyJa no need for this
I agree with Kev. As I’ve said in my first posting that I like the picture for it self.
You must not cross the line by pushing your fate to anyone but this was certainly OK, so don’t worry about it.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: Please be honest.
>I’m a bloody Belgian, student sciences-maths.
>
>There’s no reason to hide my nationality, cause I’m proud to
>be Belgian. Just look at the surrounding countries. They all
>like to laugh with us.
We don’t laugh with you, old chap, we laugh at you 😉
But who didn’t make it to the second
>round in the WC? Who couldn’t even qualify itself to join
>the WC? Haha … ok, we might have had some problems, but we
>are not the only one. Now you also have rightwing
>politicians in the surrounding countries; pedophiles, dioxin
>chickens (Germany) …
Oh that makes all alright in your beautiful little country. I almost regret having made you a separate country :-). But you, my friend, have all those nice little riots in all those little towns which have on one side Dutch speaking good fellow country men and on the other side French speaking ************ and ***********, the ***************** and ************* but **************** in conclusion *************. (Jerry Springer has got something to learn on this stages).
Just kidding of course.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: Please be honest.
>I’m a bloody Belgian, student sciences-maths.
>
>There’s no reason to hide my nationality, cause I’m proud to
>be Belgian. Just look at the surrounding countries. They all
>like to laugh with us.
We don’t laugh with you, old chap, we laugh at you 😉
But who didn’t make it to the second
>round in the WC? Who couldn’t even qualify itself to join
>the WC? Haha … ok, we might have had some problems, but we
>are not the only one. Now you also have rightwing
>politicians in the surrounding countries; pedophiles, dioxin
>chickens (Germany) …
Oh that makes all alright in your beautiful little country. I almost regret having made you a separate country :-). But you, my friend, have all those nice little riots in all those little towns which have on one side Dutch speaking good fellow country men and on the other side French speaking ************ and ***********, the ***************** and ************* but **************** in conclusion *************. (Jerry Springer has got something to learn on this stages).
Just kidding of course.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: American Invation and Agression
>”Then you should read my first post, it’s not the Dutch
>government or Dutch judges but it’s a court of the United
>Nations which happend to be in The Hague. So it IS a worlds
>court.”
>
>”Look at the case of Belgium, they have an law which roughly
>states that a crime commited against humanety any where in
>the world can be procecuded in Belgium no meter which
>nationality the person is from. “
>
>
>Sorry, I must begin with an appology. I confused the
>Netherlands law with Belgian law.
>
>Having said that the UN is dominated by a powerful few…
>will the accused be judged by their peers or by some Mix of
>Europeans?
>
>”YES IT DOES. MILOSOVISH WAS ENDIDED AND ARRESTED IN
>YOGOSLAVIA. EVERY NATION WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE UNITED
>NATIONS, all nations are except the Vatican, Taiwan, and
>Switzerland (but they are going to), are bound to arrest
>these people so they can stand trail. “
>
>Why was he not tried in Yugoslavia? His supposed crimes were
>not in many different countries… just one.
Yes physically his crimes were committed in one country, but his alleged crimes were of a nature that they were crimes against humanity as a hole. There fore they should stand trail for an international court facing an international jury, not just Europe and US, and explain them self.
>
>He was a political pawn in an international game of chess.
That may be the case but he is responsible for his own actions as does every other person in the world. Nobody put a gun against his head and said what he must do next. He is ultimately responsible because he was the head of state.
>
>Why is taking Slobodan Milosovich from Yugoslavia to the
>Hague by force to stand trial any different from US forces
>taking a US citizen from the Hague to the US to stand trial
>by force?
>
>(You have suggested that any US citizen taken from the Hague
>to the US
>will not go to trial why do you think that? …do you not
>trust your close friends the Americans?)
Why remove someone from a court which is respected all over the world and move him to its own country to stand trail. I don’t think that will happen and no I don’t trust the Americans in this way.
>
>”but thanks for your input and thank you all for it.”
>
>I thank you also for your tolerance of my opinion even
>though it is rather at odds with what you think. (Or should
>I say especially because it is at odds with what you think I
>thank you for your tolerance.)
>As a citizen of a small country with little power I am used
>to seeing the US act this way to my country and others. Now
>that it is happening to more powerful allies it seems to
>have come as a shock.
>
>This is nothing new from the US…
Thank you for noticing that that I am a tolerant person by heard. I do feel that everyone has his right to his own opinion, abeit it is laid down with arguments and that person tolerates me for having my own opinion.
I love to have such a discussion again with you or someone else. It is always educational to hear ones opinion and I’m always interested in other ones views.
best regards,
jw
DutchyOther question
I’ve got the picture posting nailed, as you can see in different post of mine 😉
But how do you get those pictures beside your name. I don’t seem to get it done.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: American Invation and Agression
>Well I think this would never, in reality, happen. It would
>lead to war, in which the US would be defeated.
>
>An intersting point was raised about the Western leaders
>being indicted as war criminals for their role in
>Yugoslavia. I agree that they should be investigated and,
>where found guilty, should be sentenced. International
>courts will never be taken seriously whilst it remains seen
>as “vitors justice” in which only the losers are ever guilty
>of anything.
WHAT DOES “VITORS” MEAN? Or do you mean victor justice?
>I see no reason why such a principle cannot be applied to
>current leaders, such as Bush or Blair. The Americans will
>scream bloody murder if their glorious President is
>arrested, but who cares what they think? It is like the
>family of a murderer crying when he is arrested – pathetic
>and undignified.
I can see a problem in that, namely if you indict current leaders then you will not have anybody to talk to and they can’t travel abroad, like the case of Sharon who refused to travel to Belgium because he felt the risk of being arrested over there was too great. But that doesn’t mean that they aren’t accountable for there deed, after they have resigned from office. So in my point of view you could go after Clinton, at the time responsible for the Kosovo war but not after GW Bush for the Afghan war.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: France–kicked out!!
Ah well,
only the 3rd time in history that a team which won the first edition didn’t make it to the secound round.
I can say that we haven’t lost a match in Japan or South Korea didn’t even get socered a goal against us.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: If you dont hear from me .
A friend of mine used to begin his messages this way just to buck the US. But that’s right Echelon that’s what i was looking for thanks 😉
regards,
jw
DutchyC’est fini
Ah well,
only the 3rd time in history that a team which won the first edition didn’t make it to the secound round.
I can say that we haven’t lost a match in Japan or South Korea :-)didn’t even get socered a goal against us.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: American Invation and Agression
Don’t get me wrong but I thoughtyou were an American or a Brit, by your reaction I think the later, but you have to remember that the Brits too have a veto right.
regards,
jw
DutchyRE: Stamps from all of you guys.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-06-02 AT 09:06 AM (GMT)]Will a small country by the North Sea do. I’ll take your address and will send some poststamps your way, always willing to help a nice guy ;-).
regards,
jw
Name; jack remington
City; kuala lumpur
I don’t think it’s going to work like this 😉 Beautiful city KLC tought love to go back ASAP realy liked it over there 🙂
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