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Smith

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  • in reply to: Revisionism in History ~ discuss #1403865
    Smith
    Participant

    http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj99/win99/ash.htm
    Published Aerospace Power Journal- Winter 1999
    Terror Targeting – The Morale of the Story, by Lt Col Eric Ash, USAF

    Thoughtful piece.

    Alertken that is an extraordinary reference piece … it’s extensive but accessible and IMHO a “must-read” for contributors to this thread.

    For those who can’t find the time to read it … a taster

    “World War II’s [Combined Bomber Offensive] was successful in setting the stage for the success of Overlord, but the terror bombing of civilians was not very successful. As a strategy, it caused negative morale among bomber crews, and it failed to target the Schwerpunkt of German morale, just as firebombing Japanese cities failed to break the Japanese will to resist. Why then did Allied decision makers go for the terror-bombing option? There are many plausible reasons: desire for revenge and “eye-for-an-eye” retribution, inability to do anything else while facing a daunting enemy and a very uncertain future, perceived opportunity to prove the raison d’être of the air forces, avoidance of friendly ground casualties, and belief that it would break enemy will. All of these and other reasons aside, the important point for today is knowing that targeting morale requires precise aerial bombing of [command and control] and leadership to disrupt the linkage among leadership, morale, and organization success. Damaging a populace’s living conditions may not break its will to resist unless carried to the morally questionable extremes of killing most of the people or completely destroying their ability to survive. At the time of the CBO, such apparent ruthless retribution as part of a strategy was more understandable to decision makers and Allied societies than it is to students of history who have not lived through the blitz and faced such an enormous task and uncertain outcome.”

    in reply to: FO Ian Hutcheson, New Zealand #1403906
    Smith
    Participant

    Sorry to be off-topic, but Errol, do you know if it’s true that NZ miliatary service records from between the world wars were destroyed due to lack of space? My grandfather served in the Waikato Mounted Rifles in 1932-33, but I was told once his records would no longer exist. The lady who told me that said she worked in the service records office in Wellington so must have known her stuff. But I just wondered if they might have been microfiched or microfilmed or something first? Any ideas?

    Dave, my Uncle’s file (then located in Wellington as I note above) had been “purged” [a military term? 😎 ] at some stage. I discovered I wasn’t finding things I thought I would find and on asking if there was another file was offered the explanation that because of lack of room all, or anyway many, files had been gone through and thinned out. Quite what the criteria for this had been I do not know. Nor when it happened – but it was said to have been years ago; I have this idea it was in the 70’s or similar but don’t bank on that assertion.

    in reply to: Revisionism in History ~ discuss #1405446
    Smith
    Participant

    This is great. This whole revisionist thing is a little like a war of statistics … these data argue such and such and these other data argue the opposite … seen alone either could be correct. There was an awareness campaign here not so long ago stating that in Greater Wellington 52% (something like that, about half) of car accidents occur at intersections (so watch out). I wrote to the Wellington City Council asking where the hell all the other accidents happened? They replied saying oh yes, it’s actually much higher than 52% … it all depends, on how you define “Greater Wellington” and how you define an accident at an intersection. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

    And so it is with the Strategic Bombing Campaign. I (and clearly many of us here) have read widely of the various issues and there are contradictory arguments in almost all cases. For example:

    The morale impacts of bombing. In the aggregate the outcome is almost always positive (for morale) all round (it’s great that we’re hitting those B’s … and … those B’s are hitting us, now we’re getting really p’d off). But if it gets really serious you get the reverse effect. IIRC Schorsch is right that double-figure loss rates at times caused Allied changes in both strategy and tactics (different targetting, pulling certain aircraft off front-line duties, etc.). And really heavy air-raid damage causes a rethink – was it Speer who commented after the Hamburg raids of July ’43 something to the effect that a couple of repeats of that magnitude would have had very serious morale and capability consequences? And of course as you note JDK, the atom bombs had significant effect.

    The manufacturing debate … various arguments to and fro above. Manufacturing output goes into overdrive at wartime, as does the enthusiasm of the other side to reduce it. Germany’s manufacturing capability increased hugely through the war years, but to have it reduced by war’s end to any point below where it started the war was a heavy impact. Contrast that to The Soviet Union’s and USA’s massive output growth and you see the skew clearly.

    And there’s this argument that the bombing campaign tied up resources otherwise valuable elsewhere. This is actually the point that kicked off this thread. I believe that to argue that this was the intent of the bombing campaign is revisionist. It was no more than a by product. But it may have been brought more to the forefront to answer the Soviet Union’s call for a second front; anyone care to comment on that? I believe the intent lies somewhere in either, or both, of the “destroy manufacturing capability” and “destroy the enemy’s morale” camps.

    The efficiency argument is interesting too. I’ve read that one from time to time, more or less as Schorsch puts it. Do war planners/strategists concern themselves with efficiency? Certainly the procurement people do – they put up specs and test protoypes etc. and then buy the most effective tool, overlaid with the efficiency of manufacture. Reflect here on the continued production of ME110 when arguably the HE219 was a better nightfighter – but the loss of production whilst retooling and the greater use of materials etc would have been inefficient versus continuing to turn out an adequate/effective product (the 110 as nightfighter) which anyway was not expected to have much service life. I’ll say it again; do the war planners consider efficiency in the aggregate? I’m with JDK on this one – IMHO they do not. And if you don’t value that aspect at the time, it must ‘a priori’ be revisionist to argue it after the fact.

    in reply to: FO Ian Hutcheson, New Zealand #1405448
    Smith
    Participant

    Thanks for clarifying that Errol.

    in reply to: FO Ian Hutcheson, New Zealand #1405463
    Smith
    Participant

    All this pre and post 1920 stuff and reference to Trentham puzzles me. I secured information (service record etc.) about my Uncle (RNZAF serving with RAF Bomber Command in WWII) at a defence establishment in Molesworth Street Wellington ~ absolutely not at Trentham. I did this in the early to mid 90’s. DaveM2 – have these records been moved in about the last decade? Charley, I’ll look in my files and if I can figure out where I went – it might be I could do the same for you. cheers Don

    in reply to: General Discussion #363835
    Smith
    Participant

    Fascinating – haven’t seen/done any of those for donkey’s (but I can say I did spot the deliberate error!). Laviticus has a good point. There’s all this stuff you do at school/uni and then never use in day to day work (unless you’re an engineer – mate of mine designs bridges and things like that). Of course there are two purposes to this education – other than to learn the specifics (eg. algebra) you’re being taught to think and reason.

    in reply to: Simultaneous Equations: #1949223
    Smith
    Participant

    Fascinating – haven’t seen/done any of those for donkey’s (but I can say I did spot the deliberate error!). Laviticus has a good point. There’s all this stuff you do at school/uni and then never use in day to day work (unless you’re an engineer – mate of mine designs bridges and things like that). Of course there are two purposes to this education – other than to learn the specifics (eg. algebra) you’re being taught to think and reason.

    in reply to: Fairey Rotodyne #1411258
    Smith
    Participant

    That’s really interesting guys – I hadn’t realised the Rotodyne was only a prototype. Have a picture in my mind of one in BOAC colours or similar – must’ve been some sort of box cover art or whatever. As for the noise – I have to say it makes a hell of a racket on the tape – combination of engines and large rotors hammering away as it sets down. Pity, great looking thing.

    in reply to: General Discussion #367048
    Smith
    Participant

    It’s not just Britain

    On the off-chance that this is a genuine question and will not be followed by the punchline (a nod to holty) … here’s a thought …

    For people coming from (or suffering) social, economic or political disadvantage the attraction of Britain and many similar open societies (including but not bounded by most Commonwealth nations, the USA, many European and some Asian countries?) is the opportunity to improve their overall standard of living (against those same criteria).

    For someone like me, coming from one of those open societies, the attraction is the open door to the EU.

    in reply to: British #1951062
    Smith
    Participant

    It’s not just Britain

    On the off-chance that this is a genuine question and will not be followed by the punchline (a nod to holty) … here’s a thought …

    For people coming from (or suffering) social, economic or political disadvantage the attraction of Britain and many similar open societies (including but not bounded by most Commonwealth nations, the USA, many European and some Asian countries?) is the opportunity to improve their overall standard of living (against those same criteria).

    For someone like me, coming from one of those open societies, the attraction is the open door to the EU.

    in reply to: light hearted TSR2 what-iffery #1425035
    Smith
    Participant

    OK all, this is just a bit of fun, so … would it have been a world beater or just bilnded all it crews with vinration??

    Off topic … but on content. In the 80’s I was an avid follower of the World Rally Championship … this is during the time of the Group B “supercars” which were real-road F1 cars of sorts. IIRC I heard an interview with Walter Rohl or Hannu Mikkola, or was it Stig? I think it was Walter. Anyway, one or the other of these august fellows made the observation that an AUDI Quattro Sport S1 (this is the last fire-breathing monster before the GpB cars were banned) was so jarring on full song on rough roads (think Acropolis Rally in Greece) that you [driver] literally couldn’t see and relied 100% on pace notes – turn left …….. NOW.

    in reply to: Approving Junk. #1336857
    Smith
    Participant

    oh the humanity

    Yes – I’m fascinated, but then again I’m a gnome am I not?

    There’s the obvious tension between (a) going operational early hoping that things will work properly but if they don’t then the best way to reveal and fix them is to expose them to operational norms and (b) testing, testing, testing in an endeavour to perfect whatever-it-is beforehand.

    A source of the tension, noted by alertken, is the tendency not to have cooperative or joint project forces tasked with singular outcomes. This of course emanates from the human enthusiasm for “ownership” and authority as in “excuse me, this is my responsibility/department …” and that positioning itself arising from career/power paths.

    Even under pressing circumstances, eg: wartime contingencies, these elements arise, with clashes between commands (eg. bomber vs fighter, strategic vs tactical) and individuals (eg: the many Heinkel vs Messerschmitt priority “wars”).

    A very interesting thread IMHO.

    in reply to: Revisionism in History ~ discuss #1337249
    Smith
    Participant

    Exactly so Ken (I assume you’re Ken, “Ken the Alert” perhaps?). I confess to perennial amazement that the RAF/Allied bombing campaign could be waged, theoretically or at least apparently, in line with Douhet’s theories – yet only a year or so before Londoners, indeed all of England, had rallied as a result of the Blitz. If anything, bombing appears to increase (or stiffen) the morale of those on the receiving end. They get p!ssed off.

    in reply to: ME-262 Air to Air Kills #1340708
    Smith
    Participant

    Hmmm … that’s a fair number isn’t it. What period are we talking about here, ie. when were the first 262’s operational? And were the night fighter variants ever operational or just prototype?

    in reply to: General Discussion #369295
    Smith
    Participant

    First in best dressed … we’re on Daz’s action films theme

    9. Deep Throat

Viewing 15 posts - 556 through 570 (of 1,284 total)