RE: Arthur’s fine

>I don’t think I said that.
>But I think if the US and NATO can use military strength to
>threaten countries like Yugslavia on their internal problems
>then SH is not alone in doing the same… we all want our
>backyards in good order and often good order just means the
>way we like it and not necessarily tidy or safe for others.

Well I´m not commenting on the Kosovo war at all, as this was a big mistake that was heavily manipulated by western governments and media. I will only say that it was the US and the EU attacking the Serbs. That was not justified imo. Ink and JAG know how I think about it. Iraq is something different. SH is under pressure from the US cause he threatens his neighbouring countries. As I doubt that Kuwait could build enough pressure to contain SH it is up to the US to contain the pressure.

>”No these childeren have done nothing wrong, but the
>government has.”
>
>But you said:
>”We hear people complain about the poor dying childeren in
>Iraq, that are killed by US bombers attacking their cities.”
>
>and then go on to say that these complaints are unfounded
>because the Iraqis probably did bad things in Kuwaite.
>
>So your argument is that US bombers can bomb and kill
>children because the government of their country did
>something wrong?
>
>Sorry but in my mind the actions of ones army is not related
>to how the people of a country should be treated… or
>should all Germans and Japanese people be treated the way
>Jews and foreigners were treated during WWII?
>We managed to seperate the actions of a few (Nazis) from
>those of the many (Germans) in one war… why can’t you do
>that now? (Don’t want to offend anyone here… but this is
>your logic)

First I never said childeren are killed by US bombs. I siad that some people in europe are saying that. And that is mostly because of the UN embargoes imposed on Iraq and the no-fly zones that starve the populations. But the solution can not be to stopp the no-fly zones and lift the embargoes without anything given by SH. I mean it is easy, if SH open his country for UN inspectors and stopps his claims on Kuwait (17th province etc.) then there could be a lifting of sanctions. As he refuses to do so, it is only his fault if Iraqi childeren die. To use your comparison, thousands of german childeren died by the allied bombings in WW2. Should they have stopped the bombing then ?? Or was it not the fact that the Nazis were to blaim for the deaths ??
On with your WW2 comparison. Yes all germans were treated the same during WW2. Or do you believe that the allied bombings made a difference between women and childeren and Nazi leaders ? (Except that the Nazi leaders where hiding in save bunkers while the others died) Only after the war and after the end of the Nazi regime the germans were treated better. You ever heard about the 100.000s germans killed by advancing russian troops near the end of WW2 ? Or the sinking of the “Wilhelm Gustlov”, a passenger ship carrying refuges (and clearly marked with red crosses) and wounded, by a russian submarine during the last days of WW2 ??
So do not give me the crap that the allies or russians made a difference between normal germans and Nazis till the end of WW2. After that yes, but as I said the Nazis were out of power then. In contrast to Iraq where SH is still in power.

>”Like producing weapons of mass destruction…”
>
>So the next country to be bombed in the region should be
>Israel… nuclear weapons are WMDs and if that is the crime
>Iraqi children died for then lets kill a few Israeli
>children… (Don’t want to offend anyone here either… but
>again this is your logic)

No it is a very different thing if a government says, we will use this weapons to attack someone, or if they say we will only use these weapons if attacked.

>”…and starting 2 wars in the last 25 years. But I know
>that was the US fault as well. “
>
>Actually lets start with the irony that you are right. Iraq
>attacking Iran was supported and in the best interests of
>the US… at the time Iran was the “evil” in the region and
>the US liked its enemies to be kept busy in costly wars…
>idle hands and all that.
>The Iraqi invasion of Kuwaite is widely reported to have
>been given the final go ahead because of a meeting between
>the Iraqis and the US where the Iraqis were given the wrong
>impression and thought they had US approval for this war
>too.

Sure the US influenced both sides during the war, sometimes helping the Iranians sometimes helping the Iraqis, as did Russia, France, GB, etc. But if you think that they said plz Iraq would you care to make war with Iran this is stupid !!! Same with Kuwait. The Iraqis thought the US would do nothing if they invade. Perhaps they misunderstood the US. But that is not the US faults, Iraqi troops crossed the border and attacked Kuwait.

>And lets finish it with… how many wars has Israel
>started… or have they all been defencive wars… even if
>they were defencive wars someone must have started them…
>why aren’t they being bombed… whoever they are…

Israel or its enemies started many wars in the last 50 years yes. But obviously both sides were able to defend themselves well enough to survive a war. Israel with US help. But Kuwait would not have survived as a free state.

>”First possesing WMD is not building a selfdefense. “
>
>Ask the Israelis, the Russians, The Chinese, The US.
>If Russia didn’t have WMD and a large though not in top
>condition armed forces NATO and US interventions in Chechnia
>might have been considered.
>”When you add missiles that can reach Israel I would not
>call it the right to defend themselves. “
>Yes… poor weak defenceless Israel with no defence at all
>and certainly no way of attacking Iraq at all…

And why should Israel attack Iraq if not threatened by them ?? I never heard an Israeli say that they are proud to built a wepaon that can eliminate Iraq with ease, yet I have seen Iraqi SCUDs flying into Israel, a country that did not participate in IIPGW. But I´m sure that the imperialstic behavior of Israel made them a convinient target.

>”A government that is known for the use of chemical weapons,
>even against their own population. “
>
>Ha ha ha ha… I guess you missed WWI? Britain, France, US,
>Germany, Russia, Egypt have all used chemical or bio weapons
>of one sort or another. The US has even used nuclear
>weapons. Lets bomb them all the Ba$tards…

Sure I can remember when the germans used chemical wepaons against theri own population. As did the british. 1000s of Scots died by british chemical wepaons.
So in your opinion there is no reason o attack another country. They can built up an arsenal of weapons to attacks their neighbours, they can slaughter minorities, they can built up WMDs, they can have a government that is know for aggression and yet you say these country/government ist innocent and the one who stopps it is the attacker.
That is excactly the thinking that made WWII possible.

>”Are you a Russian?”
>
>If only Russians can have compassion for those who get
>caught in the middle then yes I must be. My grandparents
>were Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English, my parents are both
>New Zealanders.
>
Russains have compassion for those who get caught in the middle, yeah like in Afghanistan or in with the civil wars in their southern republics. Or with Poland early in WWII.
I think most majr or regional powers are not any different to the US in that field.

PII: Yep I´m a born german. I just know who saved our ass from living in the great socialist empire during the cold war. And with the experience we germans have I know that I prefer to live in the US area of influence were I can live in personal freedom with human rights etc. I mean if the US would not be the way it is most of the european liberal US haters would not even have a right to say what they are thinking. And I know who helped us building up West Germany after WW2. And when you see in what state East Germany was shortly after reunification you know what the US did for us.

RE: Arthur’s fine

>Yes you Euros are dumb. Of course by killing children in
>Iraqi cities everything will be set right… just not sure
>how those innocent children could have successfully invaded
>Kuwaite and done all those bad things… but the Yanks had
>smart weapons that can take out your eye at 20,000ft… and
>your arm and your leg and most of your neighbours… yes
>killing innocent children will teach that evil Saddam to get
>too close to our oil in Saudi Arabia.

So you think that Saddam has a right to threaten Saudi Arabia, while the US has no right to help defend Saudi Arabia ??
No these childeren have done nothing wrong, but the government has. Like producing weapons of mass destruction and starting 2 wars in the last 25 years. But I know that was the US fault as well.

>Yes, the selfish ba$tards… imagine spending money on
>defence… what possible threat do they have to justify the
>amount of money they are spending… why they are surrounded
>by the atlantic and pacific ocean tens of thousands of miles
>away from anyone who dislikes them… whoops no that is the
>US… Iraq is situated amongst friends in the ME…

First possesing WMD is not building a selfdefense. When you add missiles that can reach Israel I would not call it the right to defend themselves. Furthermore whoops it was Iraq that started the last major wars in the region. And the same government is still in place, not likely that they are purely going for self defence. A government that is known for the use of chemical weapons, even against their own population.

>Yes… very shallow of us to think that because Israel and
>its greatest ally can’t seem to make an offer that the
>Palestinians can accept that perhaps another mediator that
>is unbiased might perhaps do a better job. Ask the Serbs and
>the KLA about the wonderful peace deals the US can come up
>with…

Well the KLA/serbs peace talk was fully backed by the EU and they were as involved as the US. And what do the EU governments do about the Israeli/Palestinian disaster?? Demand a ceasefire and hope for the next US mission. If they would stand up to their words, they could stopp the money supply to the palestinians and put a trade embargo on Israel until they reach an solution. But it is much easier to stand to your high moral views and criticse everyone else. Sure the US could do the same, but then there is no difference between the US and the EU then.

RE: Arthur’s fine

The bases in europe have another big advantage for both sides.
They help to creata a better interoberability between the forces and it builds relations on a personal level. Europe would be just a funny placw with strange people for most Americans, if there were no service members that spent some time in europe. Vice versa for the europeans and the US.

But I do know that the main reason is to have starting places for invasions of european countries (like the Netherlands). So in a kind of way the US troops occupy europe and force their will on the poor local people.
I´m certain that without US intervention the EU would have found a much better solution for the Kosovo. (something like having all ethnic albanians as refugees in europe and entering a kind of critical dialoge with the serbian leaders, touching on the return of albanians during trade conferences)

We europeans have a stupid tendency to go with the so called underdogs. We hear people complain about the poor dying childeren in Iraq, that are killed by US bombers attacking their cities. We do not hear that Kuwait was invaded by the Iraqis. (Oh I forgot it was a unification of two countries that belong together – like China and Taiwan) Nobody mentioned that the Iraqi government spents more money on defense then on buying food for the people. And if Iraq develops a ballistic missile that can reach europe, the same people will go screaming for the US how they could ever let this happen.
We blame the US for the failure pf the peace talks in the middle east, yet the EU is not able to come up with an own idea how to solve the problem, nor does it have any influence on the involved parties. (That is no ideas except, that everyone should life in peace and that the imperialistic behavior of Israel and the US must be stopped)

RE: You’ve mistaken Arthur….

Well I think I made a big mistake when reading the whole thread.

I mean everyone should know that the USA is the great Satan and that they got what they deserved. They force childeren to work as slave labours in poor countries, they invade friendly nations, they stopp natural reunifications (like Iraq and Kuwait) that the majority of the smaller countries want. Furhtermore they only have bases in Europe to invade any countriy that mover out of the line. During the cold war they only stationed their troops here to control their area of influence and by that stopped a united and socialist europe.

It is obvious that Taiwan belongs to china, cause the people are chinese and they both speak chinese. So Austria belongs to germany and one half of Belgium to France and the other to the Netherlands.

So you defenders of the great Satan if you withdraw your troops from all other countries and reduce your armed forces the world will love you.

Is it irony or is it not ??

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-06-02 AT 06:42 AM (GMT)]Dear GeForce,

you did get me completely wrong. I did not mean that anyone in Germany or Europe must actually fear to be killed by a terrorist attack to a level like Israelis or Indians must. But that does not mean we do not have to be carefull and have to fight the terrorists before they are able to be a serious threat. Would you start to fight, only if you personally are in danger ?? That is the wrong way. After 9/11 it is obvious that there is threat that commints babaric attacks against civilian people. And after knowing that some of the 9/11 attackers lived in Germany for some years, it is more then reasonable to assume, that there is El Qaida activity here in germany. And then if you look at arrests made by the european police forces, you should be seeing clearly that europe is no save place. Here a small list for you :

– Italy : planned attack on water supply in Rome (using poison)
– Germany : planned attack on a christmas season market
– Spain : attack on shopping center planned
– French : bombing material found, target not known

At the moment europe is still something like a base area for terrorist attacks against jewish or US instalations, but this includes jewish buildings in europe, US firm headquartes, etc. And the people killed will mostly be europeans. So you would say europe is not the target. And other targets could be attacked as well.

I sometimes feel that you think like, oh well they attacked the US or Israel – well that is ok. We here in europe are not in danger then.

That is the same fault the western states did before WW2. The germans are rearming, but we still have more arms so it is no threat to us.

They invaded the Rheinland. Oh ok it is their land after all and when we give it to them they will not attack us.

They are comiting crimes against the germans Jews. No problem with that, the Jews hav done many bad things and it is an internal problem.

They united with Austria. No problem they are more or less the same anyway.

They invaded Czecheslowakia, ok we let them, as long as it is not us that are invaded.

We all know what happened in the end. Everyone should have learnt that against a determined foe there is nothing but decisive action. Appeasement will not work.

RE: There is no such thing as war on terrorism

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 18-06-02 AT 12:58 PM (GMT)]Oh no my friend. The West in the eyes of the 9/11 terrorists is just the US plus it´s puppet states like the countries in europe.
It is a typical european left wing liberal idea that it did not mean europe.
And comparing the ETA or other european terrorist organisations to El Kaida is stupid. I never saw a ETA suicide bomber, and the old style Islamic terrorists never had the resources to come up with something big like 9/11. The attack on Afghanistan was needed, to destroy the main save heaven for the terrorists, as a cooperation with the Taliban government was no real option. These attacks did not destroy El Kaida, but I´m sure they severly disrupted their operations.
In so far you are right that only international cooperation in the field of intelligence can destroy such an organisation.
And a solution for the middle east would help too.

Btw how can you be sure that your intelligence agencies did not recieve any help from the US against GIA ??

Saying an attack on a football stadion would be more effective, yes it would kill more people, but it would not be so symbolic. There is huge difference between say an attack on a football stadion in Munich or the government buildings in Berlin. (plz forgive my german view)
The difference is that killing football fans would not give you sympathy in the arabic population, while hitting government buildings of western countries would be seen as a major victory.

Until the bombing of tourists in Tunisia I might would have agreed that the target was the USA, but after that I´m sure that every western nation is a possible target.

The stupid speaches of Bush are surely not helpfull.

I personally hope that you are right with your view that we europeans are not targets, but honestly I doubt that.

RE: Boy, this will cause me a lot of problems …

GeForce I can agree to some points, like the missing experience of the Americans in war coming to their homes, etc.

But imo that was not an attack on the US – it was an attack on the whole western world. And as long as terrorists threaten to make such attacks again we are at war. That also means we are at war with every country that supports such terrorists.
These terrorists are of a very different kind, then the terrorism we are used to in europe. Like ETA or IRA or the left wing terrorism in the 70´s and 80´s. The old style terrorism was aimed at political or industrial targets, while the new terrorism aims at killing people. Read about the plans to build a dirty nuclear bomb, or use chemical weapons.

I´m sure you would think very different about 9/11 when it would have been a skyscraper in Belgium that was hit and some of your friends killed or injured.
It is not so that we europeans are not targets as well, look at the bombing in Tunisia, where european tourists were the target for a terrorist attack.

I do not agree on the mainly military aproach of the US to solve the problem. Sometimes you cannot solve a problem with force. On the other hand I doubt that you would have been able to disturb the organisation of EL kaida in Afghanistan with anything else but with force.

Iraq is a different story. I see no direct threat to the world coming from Iraq. There have been no connections confirmed between Saddam and Al Kaida.

RE: Northrup-Grumman to build subs for Taiwan

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 13-06-02 AT 01:33 PM (GMT)]Well as far as I know and have read in german newspapers Northop-Gruman bought the majority in HDW to be able to sell U212/214 subs to Taiwan. German law would forbid a sale of the subs directly, so NG will sell the subs to the US, which will sell the subd to Taiwan under forgein military aid programm.
It was given as the reason why NG bought the shares of HDW. They seem to see a big market for SSKs under US military aid. And as US frims no longer built SSKs, they bought HDW to be able to offer a modern design.

Here a news article from Janes :

A US bank’s surprise purchase of a controlling share in Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) shipyard, the world’s premier exporter of conventional submarines, will have far-reaching implications for the US nuclear submarine industry and the export of diesel-electric submarines.

One Equity Partners bought a 75% share of HDW from various German companies.

Speculation is rampant that the deal is a cover for a US shipyard to acquire HDW’s diesel-electric submarine technology. This would potentially allow the US to supply diesel-electric submarines to Taiwan.

US officials also said the deal could renew debate over US Navy insistence on an all-nuclear submarine fleet.