PLA-MKIIProbably not.
The F-5s were acquired in 1982 as a deterrent to Cuba and Nicaragua. Both of these are no longer threats.
None of Mexico’s neighbours is capable of harming Mexico (except USA!).
Mexico’s main priorities for air power is surveillance (hence C-212 MPA, CN235 MPA, EMB145 R99 AWACS and myriad of light aircraft) and transport.
Such is the low requirement for supersonic combat ability, that these F-5Es have not gone through any major upgrade.
And one day if they do opt to replace F-5, it will probably be with ex-USAF F-16.
Though if bout of procurement madness takes hold it might be ex-Israeli F-4E Kurnass or old Soviet Su-15s or something equally ridiculous. :highly_amused:
Eventually they need to think about having a credible deterrence against the only country that could harm them – the US. After all, much of southern United States used to be Mexico including California.
PLA-MKIITo be fair to the Saudis, the PAF is a hard act to follow, even the Israelis have come up short against them on numerous occasions.
PLA-MKIIThe PAKFA is just an amazing piece of machinery, designed to fly high and fast. cruising speed of 2135 km/h. That’s mind boggling. Not sure if that’s Mach 2 necessarily, because we don’t know the conditions.
I don’t see a problem with these figures. Consider the F-22. Its made major compromises is aerodynamics for stealth and has weaker engines, and looks less aerodynamically sleek.
82,000 feet doesn’t sound that impossible either. The Mirage 2000, with much less wing area and a far, by far weaker thrust could get up to 60,000 feet. So its rather silly to argue the PAKFA would not do better.
PLA-MKIIJF-17 is the most controversial plane after the F-35 in modern times. Some would have it as a MiG-21 derivative. Aboulafia is on record saying an F-16 can should it down in 5 seconds (yes, down to the seconds).
Others claim it is the MiG-33 really.
Yet others claim (such as our former comrade here SOC) that it was a poor purchase and Pakistan would have been better off going with the J-10.
Earlier on, it was a case discussed hotly that “this is why you shouldn’t sell Pakistan F-16s” as the JF-17 looked like a copy.
More recently there is the whole discussion that China will not buy this plane and Bacon claims it will be a major flop in the international market.
PLA-MKIIMirage 2000s would be very expensive to maintain. UAE stopped flying theirs just because of how costly it was to keep up in the air.
I would suggest either Gripen or JF-17.
But what Brazil should really be going for is the Su-35 or the J-16/J-15. The latter should come with full tech transfer too.
PLA-MKIIvery interesting. Those F-5s must need replacement.
PLA-MKIIdeleted, double post.
PLA-MKIIbistatic and multistatic radars are surely part of the solution but there are a number of other solutions, the cell phone tower system by the Chinese is an example of such innovations.
Here is what I got on the SBIR USN project:
OBJECTIVE: Develop a highly automated digital signal processor (DSP) that receives and processes bistatic radar emissions and displays on an airborne platform.
DESCRIPTION: Bistatic radar processing by airborne Signals Intelligence/Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance (SIGINT/ISR) platforms affords covert, passive exploitation of adversary or own-force radar systems to improve tactical situational awareness and fused intelligence products. The system design should have high Radio Frequency (RF) and/or processing gain, wide field-of-regard (360 degree optimal), be capable of being configured via software/firmware to duplicate victim radar’s external operating parameters, thereby emulating victim radar’s receiver functions, and displaying targets and clutter illuminated by victim radars. Innovative design will be required provide technical solution to seemingly contradictory requirements for high system sensitivity with concurrent very wide field-of-regard, and ability to display relatively small RCS targets useful ranges.
Additionally, proposed system must be able to automatically correct inherent bistatic cardioid range distortion to provide a range corrected (circular) display. Initial interest is for a system designed for use onboard an aircraft flying up to 180 nm away from the victim radar and capturing the victim radar’s target return picture (curvature of the earth and terrain masking considered), as well as Radar Cross Section (RCS) vs Range dependency considered. System must be able to automatically achieve parameter synchronization (RF/Pulse Repetition Frequency (PRF)/Pulse Width (PW)/SCAN/SCAN RATE) with selected victim radar and display radar targets. Proposed designs contain provisions for input of additional digital/analog signals/data, such as Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) data, for simultaneous display with bistatic radar data (spare channel inputs).
Needless to say, the Chinese are probably leading the curve here as anti-stealth is a top priority for them.
PLA-MKIII have read that paper.
Aerodynamics have moved on quite a bit from just LERXs for higher alpha lift. The J-20 uses three root extensions of sorts, (1) at the air intake and (2) at the canard leading edge root and (3) between the canard trailing edge and the wing leading edge. I suppose you could include the additional wingtip vortex from the canard itself, which will pass over the wing. Unfortunately, none are coupled, which will dissipate strength somewhat and would tend to lead to earlier vortex burst.
It’ll dance, but I wouldn’t expect it to dance with a PAK-FA.
I honestly don’t think any 5th gen can dance with the pakfa… but modern wvr negate the need for a good deal of dancing of that sort…
PLA-MKIIThat is not something I completely agree with – yes, the response rate and maxima are very, very important, but if your energy bleed at high turn rates is poor, you will always be at a disadvantage after a few turns – in both aggressive and defensive maneuvering.
Yes of course, I meant it in a relative sense not an absolute sense.
It doesn’t have to necessarily be space based. Large modern low freq radars would also do the trick somewhat. As well as a few new technologies such as the phone tower concept by the chinese.
Stealth imho is a game that stealth planes are bound to lose as the advantages of powerful ground sensors are naturally in their favor. Power req, size, lack of a need for mobility, inherent constrainsts of a combat jet, etc. Cat and mouse with a much larger and powerful cat.
Returning to the topic, stealth may shift the focus a bit more towards offensive strike but can’t ensure an end to a2a combat, which brings us back to boyd and my diagram above.
PLA-MKIIBacon absolute length difference makes poor comparison, relative percentage difference makes more sense.
PLA-MKIIThe Pakistani ROSE (Retrofit of Strike Element) Mirage III/V remain a major asset until the JF-17 replaces them. The Mirages have been a blessing for Pakistan, in a time when it had very few options open. Pakistani Mirages have served a wide range of roles, from nuclear delivery to recon.
They have been the only fighters to support the PN with an anti-surface capability with the Exocet. In exercises, they have been the only fighters to defeat the vaunted F-16s in the PAF. PAF Mirages have served a wide range of other roles including air defence, with BVR R-Darter missiles to deep strike with the Mirage Vs. Most importantly, Mirages gave Pakistan the confidence to pursue, and opportunity to build, an extensive foray into combat aircraft manufacturing capability, that finally culminated in the JF-17.
It is also widely believed that the ROSE Mirages will continue to serve, along with the JF-17s post 2015. We here look back in time to consider the Mirage and its upgrade with the PAF.
The ROSE project was conceived in 1992 and begun on April 1995. PAF’s main concern was to replace the A-5s that were deemed to retire in 1997. The aim was to raise two squadrons that were capable of a surface attack role, building a strike and precision strike capability.
PAF went on a shopping trip to thus buy and rebuild secondhand Mirages and sources included Belgium, Spain, France, Lebanon and Zaire. The operational requirement was for fifty aircraft and forty aircraft were allocated funds of $120 million. PAF personnel visited Spain, France and Lebanon, among other countries and inspected 96 Mirages.
SAGEM, a French company which specializes in avionics and defense electronics, was to provide some of the equipment for upgrading the Mirages with their inertial navigation and system integration departments. However, SAGEM was looking for making more and proposed an additional forty Mirages for $150 million.
This opportunity came as a result of PAF’s enthusiasm for forty Mirage Vs and about forty Mirage IIIs of the French Air Force, which were available for sale at quite a reasonable price. The French Mirage V suited the PAF requirement because of its longer range and greater payload. PAF negotiated and the price came down eventually to $124 million and finally to $118 million by contract signing.
The package included thirty-four Mirage Vs and six dual-seat Mirage IIIs, making a total of forty fully overhauled aircraft. Out of the forty aircraft, twenty Mirage Vs would be modernized to the ROSE-II standards. These Mirage V ROSE-II were to receive an identical upgrade to ROSE-I, with the difference being that the Grifo-M radar is replaced by FLIR. The Grifo M, somewhat of a copy of the US APG-68, provided the Mirages with a significant improvement in look-down-shoot down capability, and more controversially, the ability to carry BVR missiles.
The details of the package included engines installed on the aircraft would have a minimum life of four years and 300 hours and inclusion of ground support, alternate mission equipment, and line replaceable units. Additionally, kits were to be provided for RWR, CFD and GPS.
The modifications were done in France since PAC Kamra was during that time frame, already busy overhauling the PAF’s existing Mirages. Accepting any additional work would have unnecessarily delayed the delivery of the French Mirages to the PAF. However, SAGEM encountered problems on purchase of spares, which they needed for the timely and efficient running of their upgrade program and the company managed to get the first batch ready only by September 1998. A second batch of eight was received in 1999 while the third batch of eight came to Pakistan on 22 June 2000 and deliveries were completed by end of 2000.
PAC Kamra, which had extensive experience in overhauling Mirages, F-6s and F-7s, was tasked with the work of overhauling and upgrading Mirages acquired from Australia to the ROSE upgrade standard. Pakistan had bought 50 Mirage IIIOs from Australia at a mere cost of $36 million. Most of these aircraft had less than 4000 flying hours on them and they were in excellent condition.
PAC recovered forty-five aircraft and this included seven dual-seat models that were allotted to No. 5 Squadron. Of the remaining, there were thirty-two with ROSE configuration, one aircraft crashed, and another five were considered beyond recovery.
The avionics package included Inertial Navigation System, Heads Up Display, Airborne Video Tape Recording System, and self-protection systems like RWR, Chaff and Flares, essentially the same as the SAGEM upgrades. When the United States released 360 AIM-9L missiles under the Brown Amendment, the Mirages being upgraded and equipped with the Grifo-M radar were also made capable of carrying the AIM-9L missiles.
Additional equipment include, for instance, IRCCD Forward Looking Infra Red navigation sensor for reconnaissance applications – laser rangefinder – air data sensors and computer – radar altimeter, and high capacity data transfer unit . In the French upgrade, GEC head-up display and HOTAS similar to Mirage-2000 is used.
Pakistan also acquired South African MUPSOW, a multi-purpose, surgical-strike weapon, designed to neutralize enemy targets such as airfields, bunkers and command-and-control centres at standoff ranges. Pinpoint accuracy is achieved by using an advanced navigation and terminal guidance technology. PAF also testing South African Raptor I and II precision guided munitions. PAF also uses the DART pod, which looks identical to Rafael’s LITENING pod and potentially is acquired through South Africa. PAF is also believed to use the R-Darter as its BVR missile for her Mirages. Other Mirage 5F upgrades included an integrated electronic warfare suite, on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS), and single point pressure refueling.
The final ROSE-III upgrade came for 14 more Mirage 5EF by SAGEM and included new Radar Warning Receiver (RWR);new Head-Up-Display (HUD); Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and new mission computer (Dynamics).
Read more: http://www.grandestrategy.com/2013/06/the-paf-mirage-rose-upgrade.html#ixzz2X227Fu7T
PLA-MKIIBIO, the diagram is only considering air-to-air aspects, so yes, its not looking at how it will impact other considerations.
i.e. its looking at a2a and not a2g, strike, recon, etc.
On the wider scale, I think I would agree with you to a very limited extent, or you may say I would disagree with you because:
1. Ground based EW assets are not staying static. At the equivalent technology level, anti-stealth EW radars and other assets are in development in places like China, and who knows, maybe already deployed.
2. The very low RCS figures are only for X band front aspect. They are not a useful guide for what you will get from the latest anti-stealth type EW assets that are likely to be the counter in the future. These may include even space based radars.
PLA-MKIITrying to summarize the discussion and conceptually consider the different paths. Would love some comments and constructive criticism.
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PLA-MKIITomcat, you may want to read up on the research papers by the chief engineer of J-20. The design is highly maneuverable and the theory well-vetted academically.
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