PLA-MKIIInsider politics was heavily involved in choices.
apparently bribery is not just a third world disease… and this one cost lives given the safety record of the Starfighter.
PLA-MKIIpakistan and india are neighbor so they should be close together
This means intercept times are relatively short and “messy”. As opposed to a J-8 intercepting something from Japan, Korea, over the south china sea, etc.
j8 is not for driving on the ground so topography do not matter. it will be flying in the air.
Thanks for that piece of information. Unfortunately aircombat over such terrain means agility is at a higher premium because boggies can sneak in unspotted from diverse angles. Agility is one thing the J-8 doesn’t have.
it also has long range radar to really use sd10 with
The SD-10 is relatively new in service. the PAF now has JF-17s that can carry them. Previously and still, it has Mirage III’s with something South African that’s BVR. Its classified and in relatively small numbers.
how does tall thin man fly like? such a stupid comparison
As I said, it was from a translated Chinese article of the PAF pilot that tested the J-8. Let me humor you a bit: A tall thin man would not be as agile as a man with a more balanced physique.
get used to it. all new 5th gen chinese airplane are twin engine for safety reason. you dont like what we make, go somewhere else… if you can.
I’m not even Pakistani, let alone representing the PAF. I am sure your government and the Pakistani military establishment have a better appreciation of their mutually beneficial relationship.
What I can say is that I have heard rumours that the PAF is very interested in the J-31 and potentially another stealth fighter (other than the J-20) from Chengdu. But according to H Khan of Pakdef, the present APSDF (a document that outlines the general strategy) outlines only single engined aircraft purchases for the time being (till 2017). Historically PAF have prefered (but not always held to) purchasing single engined fighters. With the exception of the A-5s and F-6s of course.
The PAF refused the F-4 Phantom on the same grounds generally as well, not agile enough and twin engined.
The PAF is far more budget constrained than China. It cannot afford a high maintenance pure interceptor that cannot dog fight its way out of trouble. It does not need the range of the J-8 as the distances between her and her enemy are relatively close for intercept missions. What’s more, only in recent years have the J-8s gotten the PL-12 (technically speaking the J-8s carry PL-12s not SD-10s). The PAF was less impressed with the PL-11.
PLA-MKIILooks PLANAF not PLAAF. Looks like a new type for aircraft carrier service. my best guess would be something like an a-7 corsair and could also serve as a small awacs (could those side plates be aesa radars).
EDIT: BLITZO got it right. 😀
PLA-MKIIWarsaw Pact I think, not Warpac per se 😉
Though Warpac sounds cooler and more like the bad guy enemies they were made out to be.
The MiG-21s where just cheaper to buy and operate, and more simple. In balance, even a more versatile plane for the role. If you notice, many prefered to retire the MiG-23s before the MiG-21s and some are still in service. The MiG-23 was not particularly more useful or effective than the MiG-21s. In addition, the economies of the Warsaw Pact was already reeling by the 1980s. And, while the MiG-21s came cheap, sometimes given for free or extremely subsidized, the Soviet Union was not as loving by the time the 23s were being handed out.
Even China chose not to copy the MiG-23, even though they had gotten their hands on the plane.
PLA-MKIIIn a turning gun fight a Mig-21 can still turn inside of a F-16.
The main shortcoming of the early ones in ‘Nam was the engine. The later versions with an improved engine do not suffer that problem.
It is still a point defense interceptor but in a gun fight it is at worst even with an F-16.
Depends on a number of parameters but I have heard that about the Pakistani F-7PGs. There is also a very old story about a / some chinese very expert pilots who, in wargames with the PAF bested the F-16s on quite a few occasions on a J-7. Some kind of a Bruce Lee of fighter pilots or something.
PLA-MKIIIt got a better engine but the USN was still not interested…
PLA-MKIIYou calling me a troll? How about you call yourself a troll. I’m not saying stupid things I’m saying this thread should be deleted. PLA-Burger I bet we all love your name that way. 😀 😉
No not you, that used to be “Y-20 Bacon”‘s old nick – “F-18 Hamburger”. All respect for the Growler 😀
PLA-MKIIwell its not that far off. an upgraded mig-21 or f-5 is still pretty lethal.
but some other crazy claims can be found in this very same forum..
1. jf-17 is as good as the su-30mki
2. micro-faceting all over the pak-fa’s apu inlets
3. secret devices and s-ducts in pak-fa
4. f-35 will be under $100M USD
5. mig-35 is superior to every single aircraft bar f-22
6. mig-29k is as good as f-35
Nobody is saying that, no plane is better than the other per se generally speaking, everything generally has its role and its place. But here is what you are looking for:
“During air combat manoeuvres with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, for example, PAF JF-17s were pitched against Chinese Su-27s in a number of scenarios and reportedly achieved favourable results.”
http://www.air-defense.net/forum/index.php/topic,5760.msg698913.html#msg698913
And thanks Rii, I appreciate your concern for fairness and what’s proper. That gentleman goes about posting personal insults against me all over the forum, has been doing it for a while, he understands what the word privy can be used for, just trying to be a …. (fit your own unsavory word there). Too bad the forum moderators haven’t bothered.
As for Y-20 Bacon / J-20 / J-7 hot dog……. F-18 Hamburger he is a long time forum troll and we all love him that way.
PLA-MKIIFedaykin can you give a description of the advert?
I personally know one of the officers (now retd) from our Mirage 2000 induction project. The issue was yes bribes from Dassault taken by some politicians (also implicated the incumbent prez) which then obviously led to increased prices (much more so than would be justified as bribe recovery). The French knew of our predicament (our plans for a 100+ F-16 fleet scuppered) & after the bribes they decided to squeeze a LOT more out of the deal than the price agreed upon. The bribe news once leaked became an easy excuse to get out of the deal which would have been economically untenable. Pakistan’s economy was just getting out of the deflation it went into under PMLN’s 1st Govt & was still on a shaky footing at the time of the deal.
I know this was OT but I love the Mirage 2K5 & would have loved to see it in our colours.
P.S I see a lot of posters here being dismissive of the JF-17. I wish the PAF would allow another comprehensive article on the type’s service to be published especially the DACT results from the last High Mark series. Would surprise many people. People may dismiss it but it fits our needs like a glove apart from range & we a re pretty darn happy with it.
We should probably start a separate thread about it, yes the JF-17 is derided rather unfairly. Its had favorable results against the FLANKER in China, as recently released. I am guessing its bested the F-16s in High Mark. Interestingly enough, PAF pilots used to sign up most for the F-16s but now the JF-17 request berth is way longer than the F-16s.
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PLA-MKIIMe too Obligatory, I’ve missed this one and I thought I had seen it all 😀
Some pics. Apparently it was the USN’s first supersonic fighter.
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http://iliketowastemytime.com/sites/default/files/historical-photos-pt6-f11fs-blue-angels-niagara-falls-1957.jpg
PLA-MKIIApologies for resurrecting this thread from the dead. Just came across this plane and thought it deserves more discussion.
I think this plane looks beautiful and what’s more it looks like an early 1950s JF-17. Here are some interesting points:
1. One of the variants had potentially the first DSI intake.
2. Was among the first area ruled planes.
3. Shot itself down, first plane to do so!
4. Used alloys and milling to lighten weight.
5. Lost out to the Starfighter, a plane that never should have been bought. Some suggest bribery by Lockheed may have been involved.
6. Is probably the grandfather of the F-5, Mirage F-1, F-16 and JF-17.
What a mistake Pakistan did in choosing the Starfighter! Grumman was willing to hand over licence production to Germany and Japan on what appears very easy and reasonable terms.
PLA-MKIIPakistan and India are a bit too close together, and the topography doesn’t help either for a pure straight line intereceptor. The Pakistanis tested it, and didn’t think much of the J-8 for their requirement. I recall and interview with one of the test pilots, translated from Chinese, it said it was like “a tall thin man”.
Those twin engines would also be very maintenance intensive and cost prohibitive. Could have been effective in the 1990s, at least over the Arabian sea. So PAF southern command could have been interested. Unfortunately I think the options were first F-1s, when that didn’t work out, they negotiated at length the M-2000s, that deal fell through because the PAF refused to allow bribery, which the civilian government insisted on to allow the money through. That is why the 1990s is called the lost decade in PAF.
PS: I love the Grumman F-11 Tiger. Wow, that’s a JF-17-like project from the 50s! What a plane. Wish it had a better engine. Even an all moving tail planes, and boy, does it look good!
PLA-MKIINo, I don’t think the tejas’ wing is a true classic delta. I want a m-2000 style wing. JF-17 like inlets, and stealth faceted body.
PLA-MKIIWould you guys mind starting your own thread for this discussion? It’s outside the scope of this particular thread. Truth be told none of you can predict the future, so why not leave it at that and see what happens?
Apologies PhantomII. Thinkplum has an interesting point about the J-8II’s speed and interceptor usefulness. Another point to ponder is that the J-8II (as well as the JH-7B, J-7, Q-5 and JF-17) are significantly easier to mass manufacture. Consider how long J-10s and J-11s take to build. It has been quite a bottleneck for the Chinese to produce enough numbers quickly enough. It may be good for a great power to have aircraft in hand that can be rapidly mass-produced, even if they are simpler and less capable. Something like the Soviet strategy, but with the caveat that these are the second line forces, while the first line holds the higher standard.
The cost of losing a J-8 thus, not only price wise but replacement wise remains very low indeed. How many and for how long F-35s, F-22s, F-18s or F-15s can face off a horde of J-8s that can easily be replaced?
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