why this production Su-34 number 02 without installing the ejection seats?:confused: can any one explain?

Well, sometimes you don’t need an ejection seat, any old parachute pack can substitute 😀

Installing ejection seats shouldn’t be a big deal, assuming they aren’t already installed and that picture has some kind of an optical illusion about it.

There are some misconceptions that I like to clarify.

It is out of basic flight testing and already has a full avionic suite, though that may be further upgraded in the future. It does appear to be in the stage of testing the avionics, with radar and full cockpit already. The apparent speed and lack of vices in the flight program can give clues about the flight behavior of the aircraft. One can say its off to a very good start.

Development programs tend to be very rocky, and often times frustrating. Even a program that happened went record time like the Ching Kuo had its splash, causing the nickname “I Don’t Fly”.

This is not completely true. Don’t look at the rather plain fuselage design which kind of reminds me of the F-5E.

If you dont’ have canards, one important feature of 4th gen fighters is having a LERX, and this plane now has good sized ones that will enable it to turn even tighter and do high AoA maneuvers. It even has one 5th gen feature by using DSI for the intakes. Look closely at the DSI and there are clever details like specially design bumps that act like golfball dimple vortex generators. These energizes and lengthens the vortices to prevent the vortices bursting within the length of the aircraft, which creates turbulence.

I also like the way the intakes are designed because they appear to complement the LERX for vortice generation. So far there is only one other design that explored that topic of DSI-LERX vortice interaction and that is the F-35.

The intake is rather unusual since unlike most aircraft, it slightly cants to the upward when intakes tend to cant downward. That is an unusual design decision, but apparently may have something to do with the slopped sides of the nose. Underside nose sloping helps not only route air to the intakes, but also lower the aircraft potential RCS. You can see similar traits with the F-18 and the Rafale, and again you don’t see sloped noses until yoiu are well within the 4th geneation to the 5th generation.

The lack of power maybe the biggest flaw in the aircraft, but with around 0.9 TWR while the plane has a full internal fuel and four AAMs, that is not bad. The TWR matches that of the Gripen when equipped similarly, and planes like some blocks of the F-16C and the F-18A-D have also dropped under the 1:1 unity ratio mark. Still this is the most noted area where the plane can stand for improvement.

Having seven hardpoints is okay for a plane of this size. The F-16 is also served by the same number of hardpoints. In A2A, there is little benefit to be gained having a loadout greater than 2 IR AAMs and 2 BVRAAMs.

The best analysis I’ve read thus far of the technical issues involved with the JF-17. I personally can’t wait to see if the WS-13 can come in line for beyond the first 50 orders and to eventually replace the RD-93 on the first 50 as well. Greater than 1 TWR is useful, but blown overboard as to its real advantages. I recall talking to a USAF retired technician, and he said that even the F-15s don’t have a TWR greater than 1 in real combat loadings. I wonder if that’s true, but it definitely brings some perspective into the applicability of that argument.

The problem I have with SOC’s article is the JF-17 is just too new! Its not even out of flight testing yet and it doesn’t have a full avionic suite.

Unless SOC has some kind of secret access to the test program and is speaking with some kind of inside knowledge I won’t pass judgement yet on the aircrafts qualities.

What we have seen is surprising considering how backward the Chinese aerospace sector was even a decade ago! It has fly by wire and modern avionics. Lets wait and see before we call it a pile of junk!

Its incredible how good the engineers at Chengdu are getting. Its like China’s “dream team”. Also the Pakistanis are contributing significantly, and there are a huge number of Pakistani personnel there, so much so that it is rumored a Pakistani consulate is being opened there and a halal food restaurant is also being opened (or so I’ve heard at pakdef).

Come here to provoke but only with one after another lies and spam, I never see anyone else can behave to such an extent. 🙁

Another slip of video from CFTE, actually this footage floated online for quite sometime already. It shows CFTE’s research on fighter jet’s high AOA and Post stall Maneuver. Do look out for some J-10’s stun at almost the end of this video( starting from 4’10” onwards) 😎 😎

CR@P!!!! wow that was incredible!!!!! Did you see that? 😀

I think the article is wrong on many counts when it comes to the JF-17 and shows a lack of understanding of thinking within the PAF and the local tactical situation.

I think the recent report in AFM gives a far better look at the JF-17 purchase.

Just to pick apart few points:

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If the FC-1 was a top-tier fighter jet, then why in the world would Pakistan be consistently pushing for the acquisition of more F-16s from the United States?

Pakistan is looking for diversity in its procurement and the F16 is a fairly easy type to induct into their air force as they already operate it.

Quote:

Then why is Pakistan also trying to acquire China’s other new fighter, the J-10? Do they want a three-jet fleet?

Is that so strange? Look at how many fast jet types India operates.

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If the FC-1 was the super fighter that some Pakistani aviation fans would want you to believe, then why aren’t they clamoring for more FC-1s in place of those F-16s?

The head of there air force has clearly stated that they would like to buy at least another 100 JF-17 making it in a few years time the main aircraft in their inventory.

Quote
Then there’s the issue of the FC-1’s true effectiveness in combat on the subcontinent. Pakistan wants about 150 of them. Unfortunately for them, India is buying and license building a similar number of a true 4.5 Generation fighter jet, the Su-30MKI. TVC, a PESA, and a robust long-range weapons fit for both A/A and A/G combat make the Su-30MKI a world-class fighter jet, and pretty much hands air superiority over the subcontinent to the Indian Air Force, easily.

This is an interesting point at face value so I think we need to look at the background to the JF-17 a bit closer. Firstly much has been made about the joint American/Chinese Super 7 project but I think it’s fair to say at this point that the FC1/JF-17 is quite a different beast to that aircraft. Looking at the situation for the PAF prior to 2001 it is important to note that they were clearly desperate for a fighter with a BVR capability and there was no chance of getting more F16 with AMRAAM (or Sparrow for that matter) and there was virtually no chance of buying a suitable type from France or Russia. The only country who could supply to them at that point was China, now prior to 2001 the J-10 was very much an unknown and certainly not something that Pakistan could consider at the time. The only aircraft with a possible BVR capability on the table was the JF-17 and I think the PAF had little choice to move forward with it. On the other hand they would have a great deal of input in its development and it would benefit local industry. Since then we have had September 11th the war on terror and America has come back to the table with the F16, China is now considering offering the J-10 (an aircraft which is clearly an intermediate type for China). The PAF is taking a very sensible path by looking at all three types and they are putting far more emphasis on the multi role ability of each type. Its becoming very clear now that the BVR capability has moved down the priority list for the JF-17 now they can get AMRAAM equipped F16 quickly and I don’t think Pakistan intends the aircraft to go toe to toe with Indian combat jets but rather use it in the swing role replacing the Mirage3/5 and older F7.

I think that the idea of what a high end and what a low end is relative and somehow built around the consensus of the F-15 / F-16 pairing. I also think that the J-10 and the FC-1 can make a great pairing, with the only disadvantage being deep penetration strike. This role is admirably filled by the new F-16 blocks – high wing loading and a heavy strike package. The older F-16 blocks overlap with the J-10 and the FC-1, filling a gap inbetween them. Would Pakistan be better off with just one type in an ideal world? Yes!! but we aren’t living in an ideal world, they can’t get everything they want from one of these three aircraft.

Now for the bombshell and I know it won’t be popular with some but the PAF has no chance in a conventional offensive air war with India over Indian territory as described in the article. The Indian air force is just too large and well equipped and the country of India is just too big for the PAF to operate over considering the layered integrated air defense network (OK it is patchy but nevertheless its a huge country making it a daunting task to penetrate) they would face. The thing is the high command of the PAF is not stupid and I think they clearly know this reality! On the other hand they can build an air force and air defense network which can give credible deterrence over their own territory. In a conventional war the combination of new swing role jets over their own fairly small airspace with AEW and ground radars can cause enough damage to the Indian air force to maybe put them off having a go.
I don’t think what you are saying is controversial, I totally agree! Pakistan cannot, unless by some superior tactics and strategy as in 1965, win the airwar over India, but they can hold their own over their own territory

Is the JF-17 a super fighter?…no! But it does fill a gap in Pakistan’s needs, I don’t think the PAF see it as such and they don’t intend it to go and face up against the MKI in close combat. But it has good export potential, fairly modern and can be purchased in large numbers.

In a decade Pakistan will have an easy to manage air force with three fast jet types, a good trainer in the K8 and at least two AEW types.

I won’t touch the issue of politics within Pakistan but I do regard the PAF as a highly professional force with a good understanding of their own capabilities and how best to utilize limited resources.

Great post, your points are always valued, you left us all speechless thats why we didn’t reply earlier 🙂

This is a big misconception. F-16 are being sold to Pakistan for war on terror rewards and has nothing to do with J-10. Secondly J-10 doesnt stand a chance in front of F-16 as off today and pakistan needs planes today and not 5-7 years from now when J-10 would have matured with good avionics and weapons system.China cannot supply Pak all the avionics,JDAM etc today what America can.

WEll, I don’t know if its a big misconception. Would the US have sold F-16s, no matter the J-10? Yes maybe, but would they put the goodies they are putting with it? I definitely don’t think so. They’d have handed a monkeyfied version of the F-16 if there wasn’t a strategic competitor.

Exhibit 1
“The United States and Britain criticized Italy’s hostage deal with the Taliban on Wednesday, saying the release of five guerrillas in exchange for an Italian reporter put NATO troops in danger and encouraged kidnappings.
“
“A spokesman for Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said only the Afghan government made the deal “in recognition of the friendship with Italy”.
”

Exhibit 2

“British deals seen hurting fight against Taliban
By Ahmed Rashid
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
January 7, 2007

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — British policy in Afghanistan is seriously damaging Western efforts against the Taliban, diplomats from allied countries have warned.
Officials from the United States and European members of NATO say Britain is increasingly at odds with its coalition partners over its policy of making arbitrary peace deals with the Taliban, while at the same time declining to put pressure on Pakistan to stop providing sanctuary to the Taliban leadership.
Diplomats in Kabul and Islamabad, the capitals of Afghanistan and Pakistan, say Britain’s “go-it-alone policies” are threatening military preparations for a major Taliban offensive expected next month.
“

Exhibit 3
KABUL, Afghanistan, Nov. 29 — After a series of bruising battles between British troops and Taliban fighters, the Afghan government struck a peace deal with tribal elders in Helmand Province, arranging for a cease-fire and the withdrawal of both sides from one southern district. A month later, the ripples are still being felt in the capital and beyond.

The elders in the Musa Qala district brokered a local peace pact.
The accord, reached with virtually no public consultation and mediated by the local governor, has brought some welcome peace for residents of the district, Musa Qala, and a reprieve for British troops, who had been under siege by the Taliban in a compound there for three months.

Now tell me with all the technology and resources why do you have british,Italians and US installed Afghan govt negotiating and striking deals with Taliban time and again?

Its really not rocket science. The taleban control much of southern afghanistan and are making a huge amount of money from poppy farming (which in turn is being sold to american kids) and with this money and a huge recruit pool they are basically winning that war. They control a huge amount of territory, virtually the entire south. Since there are not enough NATO forces, they NATO is simply pointing fingers at Pakistan and the propaganda machine is just churning up misguided american kids on the internet like our good SOC himself into believing somehow that Mushy is supporting or aiding the taleban in some way.

BACK TO THE TOPIC – OUR GREATEST FETISH PLANE THE JF-17